USA > New York > Franklin County > A history of St. Lawrence and Franklin counties, New York : from the earliest period to the present time > Part 17
USA > New York > St Lawrence County > A history of St. Lawrence and Franklin counties, New York : from the earliest period to the present time > Part 17
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Egbert Bensen, Richard Varrick, and James Watson, agents for the state of New York.
MAY 23, 1796.
The deputy, Thomas Williams, being confined to his lodging in this city by sickness, was unable to be present; the other three deputies pro- posed, nevertheless, to proceed to the business of the treaty. The com- missioner thereupon, informed them generally, that he was appointed to to hold the treaty; that the sole object of it was, to enable the state of New York, to extinguish by purchase, the claim or right of these nations or tribes of Indians, to lands within the limits of the state, and that agreeably to his instructions from the president, he would take care the negotiation for that purpose, between the agents for the state and the Indians, should be conducted with candor and fairness.
Mr. Gray, then read and delivered the following speech, as from the deputies, written in English.
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talk
A table from the seven nations of Indians residing in the state of New York, and Upper and Lower Canada, to the commissioner of the United States and state of New York, concerning a claim of lands in the state of New York.
Brothers :
We are sent from our nations to you, and fully empowered by them to treat with you respecting our lands, or on any other occasion that may be attended with a good meaning, or cause to brighten and stregthen the chain of friendship betwixt you and us. This power now given us. present, Colonel Louis Cook, Ohnawiio, Good Stream, Teholagwanegan, Thomas Williams, and William Gray, our interpreter at Caughnawaga, the place where our Great Council Fire is held, and where our nations were all assembled and in full council, and there to convince you, broth- ers, and in order that your business might be attended to with care, and speed, they gave us their full power, to act in behalf of our nations, and that whatsoever should be agreed upon betwixt you and us, the same should ever hereafter be indisputable, and stand for just, to us, or any of us. This power was given to us on paper, and signed by all our princi- pal chiefs, and the same paper, lodged in the hands of our great brother, George Washington, the President, one who we had too much confi- dence in, to believe that he would have misplaced a paper, of that con- sequence, however it does not alter our power, as we have before men- tioned. We are, sent to you for the purpose of having a final settlement with you before we return to them, and brothers, our chief's last charge, when we parted with them at the great council at Caughnawaga, was to reason the case with our brothers, and to act with judgment; for that whatsoever was agreed on at this meeting, thro' us, should stand for just to the whole of our nations.
Brothers :
At our meeting last fall, at Fort George, you, after some conversations, desired us to point out the land we claimed in this state, and accord- ingly we did.
Brothers :
You then brought in several objections against our claim, but we could not find either of them to be reasonable, or in any way sufficiently weighty, if we had ever sold any of our lands, either to the king of France or Great Britain, or either of the United States, we should have of course signed our names to the agreement, which if that were the case, we are sensible that such papers would be brought forward against us, and that too with great justice,but so far from anything of the kind, that we bid defiance to the world, to produce any deed, or sale, or gift, or lease, of any of the lands in question, or any part of them, from us, to either the king of France, or Britian, or to either of the United States, or to any individual, excepting those we have adopted into our nation, and who reside with us.
Brothers :
You produced to us a copy of a deed from several Mohawks, for eight hundred thousand acres of land, which these Mohawks had as good a right to sell, as they have to come and dispose of the city of New York, notwithstanding this, you at the treaty of last fall, pointed those people out to us, to be too just a people, you thought to do a thing of the kind; but what makes them just in your eyes, we expect is because they stole from us, and sold to you. This is what makes them a just people.
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Brothers :
Had we several years ago, done as those have, whom you call a just people, that is; had we sold off all our lands, then; underhandedly sold our brothers, and then fled our country ; took up arms and come and killed men, women, and children, indiscriminately: burnt houses and committed every other act of devastation, and in short, done every- thing we could, against our once nearest friends, then according to what you say of these Mohawks, you would have esteemed us a just people, and therefore would not have disputed our claim.
Brothers :
From what we have seen, within a few years, we have reason to believe that a people as those, are most esteemed in your eyes; we need not mention to you the conduct of the western Indians, nor of their friends, you can judge who we mean, but it seems those who injure you the most, you are the readiest to serve.
Brothers :
It seems that before a nation can get justice of another, they must - first go to war, and spill one another's blood, but brothers, we do not like this mode of settling differences; we wish justice to be done with- out, and it so far from the conduct of a Christian people, that we are fully determined we never will resort to such means, unless driven to it by necessity.
Brothers :
It is our earnest wish, to live in friendship and unity with you, and we have always endeavored to persuade our brother Indians to take pattern by us, and live peaceably with you, and to think that our brothers of the United States were a just people, and never would wrong them of any of their lands that justly belonged to them.
Brothers :
This we did on the strength of your former promises to us, which we think you remember too well to need them to be repeated. You who depend on ink and paper, which ought never to fade, must recollect bet- ter than we, who can not write, and who depend only on memory, yet your promises are fresh in our minds.
Brothers :
We ask for nothing but what is our just due, and that we ever shall expect to get, until such time as you deny your own words, not only by breaking your promises, but making false speakers of us in all that ever we said to our brother Indians, in your behalf, and encouraging those who always have been endeavoring to injure both you and us, all that ever lay in their power.
Brothers :
We entreat you only to look back, and consider the privileges your brother Indians formerly enjoyed, before we were interrupted by other nations of white people, who feign themselves to us as brothers, and let justice take place betwixt you and us, in place of arbitrary power, for that brothers, you very well know, is a thing that never gave content- ment to any people, or nation whatsoever.
Brothers :
Formerly we enjoyed the privilege we expect is now called freedom; and liberty becomes an entire stranger to us, and in place of that, comes in flattery and deceit, to deprive poor ignorant people of their property, and bring them to poverty, and at last to become beggars and laughing- stocks to the world.
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Brothers :
This is what we have already seen, but, however, we wish never to reflect on what is past, but trust in the Great Spirit who made us all, to so order it that justice may take place, and that better is to come.
Brothers :
We pray you to take this matter into good consideration, and do by us as you would wish to be done by brothers, that is what we wish for, that every brother might have their rights, throughout this continent, and all to be of one mind, and to live together in peace and love, as becometh brothers; and to have a chain of friendship made betwixt you and us, too strong ever to be broke, and polished and brightened so pure, as never to rust: This is our sincere wishes.
Brothers :
We wish likewise to enjoy our own laws and you yours, so far, that is, if any of our people, Indians, should commit a crime to any of their brothers, the white people of the United States, that he may be punished by his own nation, and his chiefs to make good all damages; and like- wise on the other part, if any white person shall commit a crime to any Indian, that we the Indians, are not to take revenge on the person, but resign him up to justice, and there let him be punished according to the laws of his nation.
Brothers :
This we think will be one great step towards strengthening the chain of friendship, and to prevent all differences and disputes hereafter, and that is what we could wish that after this settlement with you brothers, that there never may hereafter arise differences or disputes betwixt you and us, but rather, if any nation, people or individual, should attempt to cause any difference or dispute betwixt you and us, or to intrude, or wish to injure either of us, that we may be all agreed as one, to drive such ill-minded people from off our continent, that does not wish to live amongst us in time of peace.
Brothers :
These are our sincere wishes, and we hope that you will consider this matter well, and let us make a good path for your children and ours to walk in after us; this brothers, is our greatest desire, and to live in peace and love with you.
Brothers :
As to our lands, we wish our children after us to share their part of the lands as well as us that are now living, and we are sensible, brothers, that if you do by us as you wish to be done, were it your case, as it is ours, and let justice speak, and make us an offer for our lands, yearly, exclusive of a small piece we wish to reserve for our own use, we are satisfied that as you know the value of lands so much better than we do, that your offer will prevent any further contention on the business.
Brothers :
We with patience wait your answer.
May 24, 1796.
Speech from the Agents of the State to the Deputies for the Indians.
Brothers :
We have considered your speech to us of yesterday, and we find the question respecting your claim, remains as it was at the conferences be-
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twixt you and us, at the treaty held at Lake George, last fall, were closed. Without some further evidence, it appears to be scarcely reasonable in you to expect we should admit your claim, and the only inducement with us to have it released or extinguished is, as we have before stated to you, because we desire to live in peace and good neighborhood with you, and to avoid all controversy in future, and consequently not any supposed merit or justice in the claim itself, but merely contentment and satisfaction to you, are the considerations in determining as to the amount of the compensation to be allowed you. We have therefore offered you three thousand dollars, which you declined accepting, without any offer or proposal in return from you; and although it was then intended as a definite offer from us, we are still willing to add to it or to vary it to an annuity, in order to which, however, you must now inform us what your wishes or expectations are. This will be necessary, otherwise the ne- gotiations will not be conducted on terms duly fair and equal between us."
May 25, 1796.
Mr. Gray read and delivered to the agents the following speech, as from the deputies, written in English.
A speech from the Seven Nations of Canada and State of New York, to their Brothers of the State of New York.
" Brothers :
We have considered your answer of yesterday, to our speech to you on the day before, wherein you say, you find the question respecting our claim remaining as it was when we parted last fall from the treaty at Lake George. Very true, so it does; for if we remember right, you told us you would give us three thousand dollars for a release or quit claim for all the lands in our claim, exclusive of six miles square, to be reserved for the use of the village of St. Regis; and that was all you could offer, as you was sent there by them that was greater than you. We told you we was not able to comply with your offer, as we did not wish to bring our children to poverty by an action of that kind. Neither did you ask us what we did expect to have for our lands; if you had we should im- mediately have told you.
Brothers :
Now you say, without some further evidence, you can not see fit to admit our claim.
We want you brothers to tell us what further proof you wish us to shew than what we already have shown? We have told you, time past, and we tell you now, that our claim is just, and as to finding any other nation or people that say that our claim is not just, or that there is a better title can be procured than ours, as we told you before, we are sensible that can not be done, in justice; however, for your satisfaction, brothers, as we have mentioned several times before, that if you was not convinced that our claim was just, to be at the expense of calling the different nations whose boundaries join our claim, and let them be evi- dences for and against us. We likewise tell you, that if we ever had sold any part of the lands we now claim to bring forward the papers signed by our chiefs, and they will end the business betwixt you and us, and for further evidence, we think it, brothers, unnecessary.
Brothers :
We will now tell you what we expect to have, and do justice to you,
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and ourselves. That is, to reserve for our own use, in land, to begin at the village of St. Regis, and to run east ten miles on the line of the lati- tude of forty-five, then up the River St. Lawrence, from the village of St. Regis to a place called the Presque Isle, which we think is about thirty-five or forty miles from the village, and that distance to continue twenty miles in breadth. This piece we wish to reserve for our own use, which is but a very small piece. And the principal do we offer for your settlements, or any other use you may see fit to put it to. We should think it no ways out of reason or justice, to allow us the sum of three thousand pounds yearly, which will come to a trifle over one dollar for each person that is now living, and has a right in this claim, which is but a small sum towards clothing a person yearly, when before your clearing up our hunting grounds, we supported ourselves both in victuals and clothing, from what nature provided for us from off those lands.
Brothers :
Your compliances to these terms, will give contentment to the minds of your brethren, the Indians of the Seven Nations.
26th May, 1796.
Speech from the Agents to the Deputies.
Brothers :
We had intended to have avoided all further examination of the merits of your claim, and that the conferences between you and us should have been confined only to adjusting the compensation to be allowed to you for the extinguishment of it; but there are some parts of your speech of yesterday which we suppose ought not to remain wholly unnoticd by us. Brothers :
You say there is no other people can be found, who can say your claim is not just, and if we are not convinced your claim is just, that we should be at the expense of calling the different nations whose bounda- ries join your claim, to be evidences for, and against your claim.
Brothers :
It would be sufficient for us merely to say, that considering the ob- jections we have made to your claim, and the very unsatisfactory manner in which you have endeavored to answer them, that it is not reasonable in you to propose that we should be at the expense of procuring the at- tendance of the Indians, to whom you refer as witnesses. We will however, state a fact, to convince you that if they did attend, such is the probability that their testimony would be against your claim, as to render it unavailable even for you to call them.
Brothers :
.
The Six Nations of Indians, by a deed dated the 30th day of Novem- ber, 1787, and in consideration of an annuity of two thousand dollars, sold to John Livingston, and his associates, for the term of nine hun- dred and ninety-nine years, lands described in the said deed as follows: " All that certain tract or parcel of land, commonly called and known " by the name of the Lands of the Six Nations of Indians situate, " lying, and being, in the state of New York, and now in the actual pos- " session of the said chiefs, and sachems of the Six Nations. Beginning " at a place commonly known and called by the name of Canada Creek, "about seven miles west of Fort Stanwix, now Fort Schuyler, thence " north easterly, to the line of the province of Quebec, thence along the " said line to the Pennsylvania line, thence east on the said line, or Penn-
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" sylvania line, to the line of Property, so called, by the state of New " York, thence along said line of Property to 'Canada Creek' aforesaid."
These .boundaries, you perceive, include nearly, if not all. the lands you claim within this state, and the deed is signed by forty-five Indian chiefs, and among the witnesses to it is Colonel Louis, the deputy here present.
This deed was confirmed hy another, bearing date the 9th day of July, 1788. Signed by sixty-six chiefs. and among the witnesses were Coloncl Jolin Butler, and Captain Joseph Brant. These deeds having been given up to the state, by the persons to whom they were made, have been lodged in the Secretary's office, and they are now produced to you, in order that you may see them. This purchase by Mr. Livingston, and his associates, without the consent of the Legislature, was contrary to the constitution of the state, and therefore void.
It is, notwithstanding, sufficient for the purpose for which we princi- pally mention it, as it is not to be presumed, that these Indians would ever declare that lands which they intended to sell, and be paid for, as belonging to themselves, did belong to others. Not only so, but the persons who have subscribed the deeds, as witnesses, and having a knowledge of Indian affairs, and some of whom, even Colonel Louis himself, if we are not much misinformed, assisted Mr. Livingston, and his associates, in making the purchase, were called on as witnesses, be- tween you and us, they must declare, that they never had heard or believed, that any part of the lands described in these deeds, belonged to any other nations than the Six Nations, otherwise they must declare that they were witnesses to a transaction, which they knew to be in- tended fraudulent, and injurious to you; so that it must evidently be fruitless in you to depend on the testimouy of the neighboring nations, to establish your claim.
Brothers :
When we first came together, at the treaty held last fall, and before any formal speeches had passed between you and us, you mentioned, that you claimed the lands also on the east side of the line between this state, and the state of Vermont; but the intent of that treaty, being only for the extinguishment of your claim to lands within this state, the lands in Vermont were omitted out of the boundaries of your claim, as you afterwards described it to us.
This you again affirmed to us verbally, yesterday, and you declared the lands claimed by you, within the limits of Vermont, as running from Ticonderoga to the Great Falls on Otter Creek, thence easterly to the heights of land, dividing the waters which run eastwardly, from the waters which run into Lake Champlain, thence along these heights, and the heads of the waters running into Lake Champlain, to the forty- fifth degree of latitude, and we take it for granted, you mean your claim is the same as well with respect to the lands in Vermont as to the lands in this state.
The king of Great Britain, however, when the territory was under the jurisdiction of this state, as the colony of New York, made grants of land, within the boundaries of your claim, as extending into Vermont, without requiring a previous purchase from you, or any other nation, or tribes of Indians, which is a further proof against the existence of any title, in you, to the lands you claim.
Brothers :
In 1782 and 1788, we purchased from the Oneidas, Cayugas, and Onon- dagos, the whole of their lands, except some tracts which were reserved
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for their own use, and the land which we purchased from each of these na- tions, and exclusive of the reservations, are certainly not less in value, than the lands you claim, as comprehended within this state.
Their title was not disputed-your title is not only disputed, but ut- terly denied by us. We are still willing however, but from motives of prudence and good will, only, to place you in respect to the amount of compensation, on an equal footing with them, and therefore will allow you, the average of what was then allowed them, which will be an immediate payment of one thousand pounds, six shillings and eight pence, an an- nuity of two hundred and thirteen pounds, six shillings and eight pence. The tract equal to six miles square, near the village of St. Regis, still to be applied to your use, as reserved in the sale to Alexander Macomb.
If this offer is accepted by you, it will then remain to be adjusted be- tween you and us, as to the time, place and manner, in which the pay- ments are to be made.
Brothers :
We shall now await for your answer.
28th May, 1796.
Speech from the Deputies to the Agents.
Brothers :
We have considered your offers to our last speech, and we think that we understand the greater part of them, and we are happy to think that after so long a time, you have thought fit to take some part of our speeches into good consideration.
Brothers :
We did say there was no people could with justice say your claim is not just, and we still repeat to you, brothers, that these deeds, you have shewm to us, are unjust, that is, we mean according to all information we can get from Colonel Louis, who was present when such purchase should have been made, and according to all the conversations we have had with the different nations, that should have sold this tract of land, belonging to us, and we never understood by these nations, that they had disposed of any lands within our boundaries.
We have strictly examined Colonel Leuis that was present when these purchases were made, of those nations, and he solemnly declares that he did not know of their selling any part of our lands, or any other, only he lands that belonged to them, and we take him to be a man of better prin- ciples, than to be a witness to so great a piece of misconduct against his own tribe, and then not to inform us of it before this time; we therefore must needs tell you, that we think there is a great deception in those deeds, as there has been in many other former purchases from our brother In- dians, and to convince you, brothers, that we do not make an unjust de- mand; was it not for our poverty, we should not have requested you to have been at the expense of calling the different nations for witnesses be- tween you and us, as we wish to convince you that we are a people that always have acted on honest principles, and mean to continue in doing the same. However, it seems you are indifferent about having these na- tions to come forward, and for our parts, brothers, we think it a great honor to settle matters that concern you and us among ourselves, and not to trouble our neighbors with our business. We therefore are willing to comply with any thing in reason and justice, rather than it should be said by those ill-minded people that are always trying to invent mischief be- tween us, that we could not agree. But there is one question we wish to ask you brothers ;- have you not known us to be the right owners of these
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lands, why did you direct your good advice to us at the beginning of the trouble between you and the king of England?
We are sensible that a nation or people without lands, are like rogues without friends; of neither, is notice taken, or confidence put on them. But we received your council, heard your advice and your promises to us, and took them to be sincere, and we ever since have endeavored to live up to them with you as near us as possibly was in our power, and we believe we can with safety say, that since we have been neighbors, that we never have injured you or your properties, even to the value of a fowl. Neither have we made any demands from you while we could sup- port ourselves by hunting, and always thought it to be a favor to our brothers in the new settlements, rather than to think or have the least mistrust that it would be a detriment to your justifying our claim when made. No brothers, we put too much confidence in your good and fair promises, to have the least mistrust of a thing of the kind.
Brothers :
Respecting our lands in Vermont, our claim in that state is as our claim in this state, which is just; and as to the king of Great Britain giving grants for settlements without requiring a purchase of us, that was not much for him to do at that time. If that had been the only mis-step he had taken towards the welfare of his children, we dare say you would not have rebelled against the government and laws of Great Britain, for the sake of obtaining liberty.
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