USA > Illinois > Stephenson County > History of Stephenson County, Illinois : a record of its settlement, organization, and three-quarters of a century of progress > Part 26
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The New York Evening Post has the following from its special correspond- ent on the method of handling the crowd at Freeport: "After dinner the crowd
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hurried to a grove near the hotel, where the speakers' stand and seats for listen- ers had been arranged. Here also was confusion and disorder. They have a wretched way in Illinois of leaving the platform unguarded and exposed to the forcible entry of the mob, who seize upon it an hour before the notabilities ar- rive and turn a deaf ear to all urgent appeals to evacuation. Hence, orators, committee of reception, invited guests and last, but not least, the newspaper gentry have to fight a hand to hand conflict for even the meagerest chance for standing room. This consumes a half hour or so, during which the crowd tak- ing their cue from those of high places, improvise a few scuffles for position among themselves."
DESCRIPTION OF DOUGLAS AND LINCOLN.
The correspondent of the New York Evening Post gave the following de- scription of Douglas and Lincoln :
"Two men presenting wider contrasts could hardly be found as representa- tives of the two great political parties. Everybody knows Douglas, a short, thick-set, burly man, with large round head, heavy hair, dark complexion, and fierce bull-dog bark. Strong in his own real power, and skilled in a thousand conflicts in all the strategy of a hand to hand or a general fight. Of towering ambition, restless in his desire for notoriety : proud, defiant, arrogant, unscrupu- lous, 'Little Doug' ascended the platform and looked out impudently and care- lessly on the immense throng which surged and struggled before him. A native of Vermont, reared on soil where no slave ever trod, trained to hard manual labor and schooled in hardships, he came to Illinois a teacher, and from one post to another had arisen to his present eminence.
"The other, Lincoln, is a native of Kentucky, and of poor white parentage and from his cradle he has felt the blighting influence and cruel shadow which rendered labor dishonorable. Reared in poverty and the humblest aspirations, he came to Illinois and began his career of honorable toil. At first a laborer, splitting rails for a living, deficient in education, and applying himself even to the rudiments of knowledge he, too, felt the expanding power of manhood and be- gan to achieve the greatness to which he has succeeded. With great difficulty, struggling through the tedious formularies of legal lore, he was admitted to the bar and rapidly made his way to the front ranks of his profession. He has been always, in every relation of life, the pure and honest man. Built on the Kentucky type, he is very tall, slender and angular, awkward, even in gait and attitude. His face is sharp, large featured and unprepossessing. His eyes are deep set, under heavy brows; his forehead is high and retreating and his hair is dark and heavy. In repose, 'Long Abe's' appearance is not comely. But stir him up and the fire of his genius plays on every feature. His eye glows and sparkles, every lineament, now so ill-formed, grows radiant and expressive, and you have before you a man of rare power and of strong magnetic influence. He is clear, concise, and logical; his language is eloquent and at perfect command. He is altogether a more fluent speaker than Douglas, and in all the arts of debate fully his equal."
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A description of Lincoln in the Vincennes Sun, July 3, 1858, is as follows :
"Lincoln is popular,-the strongest man the opposition have, is nearly fifty years old, six feet two, slightly stoop-shouldered, very muscular and powerful, dark eyes, a quizzical, pleasant, raw-boned face, tells a story better than anybody else, is a good lawyer, and is what the world calls a devilish good fellow. He would have been Senator before had not Trumbull's superior cunning over- reached him. But in dignity, intellect and majesty of mind, it is not pretended that he is Douglas's equal." Douglas said that he considered Lincoln "a kind, amiable, kindhearted gentleman, a good citizen, and an honorable opponent," but that he took exception to his principles.
An eye witness of the Freeport debate gives the following description of the two men: "Lincoln was tall and ungainly, with a lean face. Homely and sor- rowful looking, while Douglas was short and fat, easy of manner and his full face seemed to be that of a man whose life had been one of success and sun- shine. Douglas was dressed in what might have been called plantation style. He was richly dressed. He wore a ruffled shirt, a dark blue coat closed with shiny buttons, light trousers and shiny shoes, with a wide-brimmed soft hat, like that still worn by the prosperous politicians of Southern Illinois. He made a picture fitted for the stage.
Lincoln wore an old stove-pipe hat with a coarse looking coat with sleeves far too short, and baggy trousers, so short that they showed his rough boots. To tell the truth, the Lincoln men couldn't brag much on their man for exhibi- tion purposes.
The correspondent of the New York Tribune criticised Douglas for his abuse of opponents. It says, "Trumbull in particular came in for a good share of these compliments. Douglas is rather more cautious how he talks about Lin- coln, 'Long Abe' being a man of Kentucky raising, and one who might fight and 'Little Doug' is well known to be a bully who insults only peaceable men." The Tribune reporter also sent his paper the following story about Lincoln's good looks. The story goes as follows: "Lincoln was out hunting in the woods when he fell in with a most truculent looking hunter who immediately took a sight on Lincoln with a rifle. 'Halloo!' says Lincoln, 'whatever you going to do stranger?' 'See here, friend, the folks in my settlement told me if I ever saw a man uglier than I was, then I must shoot him; and I've found him at last.' 'Well,' says Lincoln, after a good look at the man, 'Shoot away, for if I am really uglier than you are, I don't want to live any longer.'"
The Chicago Times said, October 1, 1858: "It will be remembered that after Lincoln had been listened to attentively, and when Douglas went upon - the stand, some villian threw at Douglas a melon, hitting him upon one shoulder. Nor was that the only indecent act perpetrated by the enemies of Democracy at that place. From that day to this the ruffianism of black Republicanism has steadily increased."
Mr. Ingalls Carleton, one of the pioneers of Freeport who witnessed the great debate, says that on Friday A. M. the people crowded the street in front of the Brewster Hotel and yelled for both Douglas and Lincoln. Finally both Lincoln and Douglas appeared on the balcony, arm in arm, and bowed to the
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people again and again. At the debate each side thought its man did the best, but a majority thought Lincoln had Douglas on the hip."
William Askey says Hon. Martin P. Sweet had a vantage position on a box car when Lincoln's train came into Freeport and shouted, "Make the welkin ring when the train arrives." He adds, "they cheered as though bedlam had an outing."
LINCOLN'S QUESTIONS AND DOUGLAS' REPLY.
During the Ottawa debate Douglas put several question to Mr. Lincoln. At Freeport, Lincoln answered these questions and then said that he had a few questions he wanted to put to Judge Douglas. At Freeport, he confined himself to four questions, as follows :
I. If the people of Kansas shall, by means entirely unobjectionable in all other respects, adopt a state constitution and ask admission into the Union under it, before they have the requisite number of inhabitants according to the English bill-some 93,000, will you vote to admit them? (Applause.)
2. Can the people of a United States territory in a lawful way, against the wish of any citizen of the United States, exclude slavery from its limits prior to the formation of a state constitution? (Applause.)
3. If the supreme court of the United States shall decree that states cannot exclude slavery from their limits, are you in favor of aquiescing in, adopting and following such decision as a rule of political action? (Loud applause.)
4. Are you in favor of acquiring additional territory in disregard of how such acquisition may affect the nation on the slavery question? (Cries of good ! good !)
Judge Douglas answered the questions as follows :
I. I, therefore, answer at once that it having been decided that Kansas has people enough for a slave state, it has enough for a free state.
2. In my opinion the people of a territory can, by lawful means, exclude slavery from their limits, prior to the formation of a state constitution. It mat- ters not what way the supreme court may hereafter decide as the abstract ques- tion whether slavery may go into the territory under the constitution, the people have the lawful means to introduce it or exclude it as they please, for the reason that slavery cannot exist a day or an hour anywhere unless it is supported by local police regulations.
3. I tell him that such a thing is not possible.
4. I answer that whenever it becomes necessary, in our growth and progress, to acquire more territory, that I am in favor of it without reference to the ques- tion of slavery ; and when we have acquired it, I will leave the people free to do as they please, either to make it slave or a free territory as they prefer.
It was the second question that caused so much comment before and after the debate. It seemed to put Douglas in a dilemma because if he answered yes, he .would seem to be denying the principle of the Dred Scott decision which he supported. If he answered no, then he shattered his own creation, popular sovereignty. However, that may be, Douglas answered the question, yes, and
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lost the votes of the southern delegation in the Democratic National Convention of 1860.
That Lincoln's advisors were against his asking this second question is clear. Joseph Medill, of the Chicago Tribune, was with Lincoln from Ottawa to Freeport. Between the two debates Lincoln addressed three or four meetings. Lincoln showed his four questions to Medill on the train coming up from Dixon, and asked Medill's opinion of them. Medill objected to the second question, because, as he said, it would give Douglas a chance to square himself on his popu- lar sovereignty idea. Lincoln replied, "I won't change it, and I intend to spear it at Judge Douglas this afternoon." Medill told E. B. Washburn and Norman B. Judd, the former the congressman from the Freeport district and the latter, chairman of the Republican State Central Committee, about Lincoln's questions and they decided to attempt to convince Lincoln that the celebrated question should be left out. They made the attempt and failed to change his purpose.
After Lincoln had been elected president of the United States, he asked Medill if he remembered that question he asked Douglas at Freeport? Medill, of course, remembered it and replied that, while it hurt Douglas for the presi- dency, it elected him to the senate. Lincoln replied with a smile, "Now, I have won the place he was playing for."
Hon. Clark E. Carr, who knew Lincoln and Douglas well, in speech before the Bar Association, July 1I, 1907, denied that Lincoln drove Douglas into a cor- ner by his question. He stated that Douglas had taken the same ground on that point at Bloomington six weeks before, and that Lincoln heard that speech. Mr. Carr adds : "Senator Douglas has never been driven into a corner. In all his de- bates with the greatest American, he was never driven into a corner. His views on slavery were wrong, but there was no concealment about them. He was always outspoken, and it is an unwarrantable and an outrageous imputation against him to say that he was forced to take a position through being driven into a corner." However, the Bloomington speech by Douglas received little at- tention, while the Freeport debates were read and discussed all over the nation, and the wide publicity of that idea expressed in the answer by Douglas made it impossible for him to be the candidate of the United Democracy for the presi- dency of the United States in 1860. The division thus caused, made Lincoln's election both possible and probable.
Rhodes quotes Horace Greeley as authority for the statements of the cost of the campaign to the two candidates. "Lincoln," Greeley said, in the Century Magazine, July, 1891, p. 375, "spent less than $1,000, while Douglas spent no less than $80,000, and incurred a debt which weighed him down to the grave."
When the legislature met to elect a senator, Douglas had a majority of eight votes. But the Republican state ticket was elected by a majority of almost four thousand votes. In 1854 Lincoln lacked only four votes of being elected to the senate.
After the contest of 1858 was over Douglas paid Lincoln the compliment in Washington by saying that there was not a man .in the senate he would not rather meet in debate than Lincoln and that included such men as Seward, Sum- ner and Chase.
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SECOND JOINT DEBATE.
Freeport, August 27, 1858.
Mr. Lincoln was introduced by Hon. Thomas J. Turner, and was greeted with loud cheers. When the applause had subsided he said :
MR. LINCOLN'S SPEECH.
Ladies and Gentlemen: On Saturday last, Judge Douglas and myself first met in public discussion. He spoke one hour, I an hour and a half, and he replied for half an hour. The order is now reversed. I am to speak an hour, he an hour and a half, and then I am to reply for half an hour. I propose to devote myself during the first hour to the scope of what was brought within the range of his half-hour speech at Ottawa. Of course there was brought within the scope of' that half-hour's speech something of his own opening speech.
In the course of that opening argument Judge Douglas proposed to me seven distinct interrogatories. In my speech of an hour and a half, I attended to some other parts of his speech, and incidentally, as I thought, answered one of the interrogatories then. I then distinctly intimated to him that I would answer the rest of his interrogatories. He made no intimation at the time of the proposi- tion, nor did he in his reply allude at all to that suggestion of mine. I do him no injustice in saying that he occupied at least half of his reply in dealing with me as though I had refused to answer his interrogatories. I now propose that I will answer any of the interrogatories upon condition that he will answer ques- tions from me not exceeding the same number. I give him an opportunity to respond. The judge remains silent. I now say2 that I will answer his interrog- atories whether he answers mine or not; (applause) and after that I have done · so, I shall propound mine to him. (Applause.)
(Owing to the press of people against the platform our reporter did not reach the stand until Mr. Lincoln had spoken to this point. The previous re- marks were taken by a gentleman in Freeport, who has politely furnished them to us.)
I have supposed myself, since the organization of the Republican party at Bloomington, in May, 1856, bound as a party man by the platform of the party, then and since. If in any interrogatories which I shall answer I go beyond the scope of what is within these platforms, it will be perceived that no one is re- sponsible but myself.
Having said thus much, I will take up the judge's interrogatories as I find them printed in the Chicago Times, and answer them seriatim. In order that there may be no mistake about it, I have copied the interrogatories in writing, and also my answers to it.3 The first one of these interrogatories is in these words :-
Question I. "I desire to know whether Lincoln today stands as he did in 1854, in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive-Slave law?"
1 Reads : "in" for 'of."
2 Inserts : "to you" after "say."
3 Reads : "them" for "it."
WITHIN THIS BLICK WAS HELD THE SECOND JOINT DEBATE IN THE SENATORIAL CONTEST
ABRAHAM LINCOLN"
AND STEPHEN A. DOUGLTE
I AM N. T FOR THE DISSOLUTION OF THE UNION URDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES
"THIS GOVERNMENT CANNOT ENDURE PER - MAXENTLY HALF SLAVE AND HALF FREE" LINCOLA.
TRECTED BY THE FREEPORT WOMAN'D CLUB.
DEDICATED TY PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT, JUNHO TOS
THE LINCOLN-DOUGLAS DEBATE MONUMENT
LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS
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Answer. I do not now, nor ever did, stand in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive-Slave law. (Cries of "Good ! Good !")
Q. 2. "I desire him to answer whether he stands pledged today, as he did in 1854, against the admission of any more slave states into the Union, even if the people want them?"
A. I do not now, nor ever did, stand pledged against the admission of any more slave states into the Union.
Q. 3. "I want to know whether he stands pledged against the admission of a new state into the Union with such a constitution as the people of that state may see fit to make?"
A. I do not stand pledged against the admission of a new state into the Union, with such a constitution as the people of that state may see fit to make. (Cries of "Good ! Good !")
Q. 4. "I want to know whether he stands today pledged to the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia ?"
A. I do not stand today pledged to the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia.
Q. 5. "I desire him to answer whether he stands pledged to the prohibition of the slave trade between the different states?"
A. I do not stand pledged to the prohibition of the slave trade between the different states. 1
Q. 6. "I desire to know whether he stands pledged to prohibit slavery in all the territories of the United States, north as well as south of the Missouri Compromise Line?"
A. I am impliedly, if not expressly, pledged to a belief in the right and duty of Congress to prohibit slavery in all the United States territories. (Great applause.)
Q. 7. "I desire him to answer whether he is opposed to the acquisition of any new territory unless slavery is first prohibited therein?"
A. I am not generally opposed to honest acquisition of territory; and, in any given case, I would or would not oppose such acquisition, accordingly as I might think such acquisition would or would not aggravate1 the slavery question among ourselves. (Cries of "Good! Good !")
Now, my friends, it will be perceived, upon an examination of these questions and answers that, so far, I have only answered that I was not pledged to this or the other. The judge has not framed his interrogatories to ask me anything more than this, and I have answered in strict accordance with the interrogatories and have answered truly, that I am not pledged at all upon any of the points to to which I have answered. But I am not disposed to hang upon the exact form of his interrogatory. I am rather disposed to take up at least some of these questions and state what I really think upon them.
As to the first one, in regard to the Fugitive-Slave Law, I have never hesi- tated to say, and I do not now hesitate to say, that I think, under the Constitution of the United States, the people of the southern states are entitled to a congres- sional fugitive-slave law. Having said that, I have had nothing to say in regard to the existing Fugitive-Slave Law, further than that I think it should have been framed so as to be free from some of the objections that pertain to it, without
1 Reads : "them" for "it."
-
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lessening its efficiency. And inasmuch as we are not now in an agitation in re- gard to an altercation or modification of that law, I would not be the man to introduce it as a new subject of agitation upon the general question of slavery.
In regard to the other question, of whether I am pledged to the admission of any more slave states into the Union, I state to you very frankly that I would be exceedingly sorry ever to be put in a position of having to pass upon that question. I should be exceedingly glad to know that there would never be an- other slave state admitted into the Union; (applause) but I must add that if slavery shall be kept out of the territories during the territorial existence of any one given territory and then the people shall, having a fair chance and a clear field, when they come to adopt the constitution do such an extraordinary thing as to adopt a slave constitution, uninfluenced by the actual presence of the insti- tution among them, I see no alternative, if we own the country, but to admit them into the Union. (Applause.)
The third interrogatory is answered by the answer to the second, it being, as I conceive, the same as the second.
The fourth one is in regard to the abolition of slavery in the District of Co- lumbia. In relation to that, I have my mind very distinctly made up. I should be exceedingly glad to see slavery abolished in the District of Columbia. (Cries of "Good! Good !") I believe that Congress possesses the constitutional power to abolish it. Yet as a member of Congress I should not, with my present views. be in favor of endeavoring to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, unless it would be upon these conditions: First, that the abolition should be gradual; second, that it should be on a vote of the majority of qualified voters in the district ; and third, that compensation should be made to unwilling owners. With these three conditions, I confess I would be exceedingly glad to see Congress abolish slavery in the District of Columbia and, in the language of Henry Clay, "sweep from our capital that foul blot upon our nation." (Loud applause.)
In regard to the fifth interrogatory, I must say here, that as to the question of the abolition of the slave trade between the different states, I can truly an- swer, as I have, that I am pledged to nothing about it. It is a subject to which I have not given that mature consideration that would make me feel authorized to state a position so as to hold myself entirely bound by it. In other words, that question has never been prominently enough before me to induce me to investi- gate whether we really have the constitutional power to do it. I could investi- gate it if I had sufficient time to bring myself to a conclusion upon that subject; but I have not done so, and I say so frankly to you here, and to Judge Douglas. I must say, however, that if I should be of opinion that Congress does pos- sess the constitutional power to abolish the slave-trade1 among the different states, I should still not be in favor of the exercise of that power unless upon some conservative principle as I conceive it, akin to what I have said in relation to the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia.
My answer as to whether I desire that slavery should be prohibited in all the territories of the United States, is full and explicit within itself, and cannot be made clearer by any comments of mine. So I suppose in regard to the ques- tion whether I am opposed to the acquisition of any more territory unless slavery
1 Reads : "slavery" for "the slave trade."
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is first prohibited therein, my answer is such that I could add nothing by way of illustration, or making myself better understood, than the answer which I have placed in writing.
Now in all this the judge has me, and he has me on the record. I suppose he had flattered himself that I was really entertaining one set of opinions for one place, and another set for another place; that I was afarid to say at one place what I uttered at another. What I am saying here I suppose I say to a vast audience as strongly tending to abolitionism as any audience in the State of Illinois, and I believe I am saying that which, if it would be offensive2 to any persons and render them enemies to myself, would be offensive to persons in this audience.
I now proceed to propound to the judge the interrogatories, so far as I have framed them. I will bring forward a new installment when I get them ready. (Laughter.) I will bring them forward now, only reaching to number four.
The first one is :---
Question I. If the people of Kansas shall, by means entirely unobjection- able in all other respects, adopt a state constitution and ask admission into the Union under it, before they have the requisite number of inhabitants according to the English bill,-some ninety-three thousand,-will you vote to adınit them? (Applause).
Q. 2. Can the people of a United States Territory in any lawful way, against the wish of any citizen of the United States, exclude slavery from its limits prior to the formation of a State constitution? (Renewed applause. )
Q. 3. If the Supreme Court of the United States shall decree that states cannot exclude slavery from their limits, are you in favor of acquiescing in, adopting and following such decision as a rule of political action? (Loud applause. )
Q. 4. Are you in favor of acquiring additional territory, in disregard of how such acquisition may affect the nation on the slavery question? (Cries of "Good! Good !")
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