USA > Illinois > Stephenson County > History of Stephenson County, Illinois : a record of its settlement, organization, and three-quarters of a century of progress > Part 27
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As introductory to these interrogatories which Judge Douglas propounded to me at Ottawa, he read a set of resolutions which he said Judge Trumbull and myself had participated in adopting, in the first Republican State Convention, held at Springfield in October, 1854. He insisted that I and Judge Trumbull, and perhaps the entire Republican party, were responsible for the doctrines con- tained in the set of resolutions which he read, and I understand that it was from that set of resolutions that he deduced the interrogatories which he propounded to me, using these resolutions as a sort of authority for propounding those questions to me. Now, I say here to-day that I do not answer his interrogatories because of their springing at all from that set of resolutions which he read. I answered them because Judge Douglas thought fit to ask them. (Applause.) I do not now, nor never did, recognize any responsibility upon myself in that set of resolutions. When I replied to him on that occasion, I assured him that I never had anything to do with them. I repeat here to-day that I never in any possible form had anything to do with that set of resolutions.
2 Reads : "affirmed" for "offensive."
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It turns out, I believe, that those resolutions were never passed in any con- vention held in Springfield. (Cheers and laughter.) It turns out that they were never passed at any convention or any public meeting that I had any part in. I believe it turns out, in addition to all this, that there was not, in the fall of 1854, any convention holding a session in Springfield, calling itself a Republican State Convention ; yet it is true there was a convention or assemblage of men calling themselves a convention, at Springfield, that did pass some resolutions. But so little did I really know of the proceedings of that convention, or what set or reso- lutions they had passed, though having a general knowledge that there had been such an assemblage of men there, that when Judge Douglass read the resolutions, I really did not know but they had been the resolutions passed then and there I did not question that they were the resolutions adopted. For I could not bring myself to suppose that Judge Douglas could say what he did upon this subject with out knowing that it was true. (Cheers and laughter.) I contented myself, on that occasion, with denying, as I truly could, all connection with them, not denying or affirming whether they were passed at Springfield. Now, it turns out that he had got hold of some resolutions passed at some convention or public meeting in Kane County. (Renewed laughter.) I wish to say here, that I don't conceive that in any fair and just mind this discovery relieves me at all. I had just as much to do with the convention in Kane County as that at Spring- field. I am just as much responsible for the resolutions at Kane County as those at Springfield,-the amount of the responsibility being exactly nothing in either case; no more than there would be in regard to a set of resolutions passed in the moon. (Laughter and loud cheers.)
I allude to this extraordinary matter in this canvass for some further pur- pose than anything yet advanced. Judge Douglas did not make his statement upon that occasion as matters that he believed to be true, but he stated them roundly as being true, in such form as to pledge his veracity for their truth. When the whole matter turns out as it does, and when we consider who Judge Douglas is,-that he is a distinguished Senator of the United States; that he has served nearly twelve years as such; that his character is not at all limited as an ordinary Senator of the United States, but that his name has become of world- wide renown,-it is most extraordinary that he should so far forget all the sug- gestions of justice to an adversary, or of prudence to himself, as to venture upon the assertion of that which the slightest investigation would have shown him to be wholly false. (Cheers.) I can only account for his having done so upon the supposition that that evil genius which has attended him through his life, giving to him an apparent astonishing prosperity, such as to lead very many good men to doubt there being any advantage in virtue over vice. (Cheers and laughter.) I say I can only account for it on the supposition that that evil genius has at last made up its mind to forsake him. (Continued cheers and laughter.)
And I may add that another extraordinary feature of the Judge's conduct in this canvass-made more extraordinary by this incident-is, that he is in the habit, in almost all the speeches he makes, of charging falsehood upon his adversaries, myself and others. I now ask whether he is able to find in any- thing that Judge Trumbull, for instance, has said, or in anything that I have
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said, a justification at all compared with what we have, in this instance, for that sort of vulgarity. (Cries of "Good ! Good !")
I have been in the habit of charging as a matter of belief on my part that. in the introduction of the Nebraska bill into Congress, there was a conspiracy to make slavery perpetual and national. I have arranged from time to time the evidence which establishes and proves the truth of this charge. I recurred to this charge at Ottawa. I shall not now have time to dwell upon it at very great length; but inasmuch as Judge Douglas, in his reply of half an hour, made some points upon me in relation to it, I propose noticing a few of them.
The Judge insists, that, in the first speech I made, in which I very distinctly made that charge, he thought for a good while I was in fun; that I was playful; that I was not sincere about it; and that he only grew angry and somewhat ex- cited when he found that I insisted upon it as a matter of earnestness. He says he characterized it as a falsehood as far as I implicated his moral character in that transaction. Well, I did not know, till he presented that view, that I had implicated his moral character. He is very much in the habit, when he argues me up into a position I never thought of occupying, of very cosily saying he has no doubt Lincoln is "conscientious" in saying so. He should remember that I did not know but what he was ALTOGETHER "CONSCIENTIOUS" in the matter. (Great laughter.) I can conceive it was possible for men to conspire to do a good thing, and I really find nothing in Judge Douglas' course or argu- ments that is contrary to, or inconsistent with, his belief of a conspiracy to nationalize and spread slavery as being a good and blessed thing; (continued laughter) and so I hope he will understand that I do not at all question but that in all this matter he is entirely "conscientious." (More laughter and cheers.)
But to draw your attention to one of the points I made in this case, beginning at the beginning. When the Nebraska bill was introduced, or a short time after- ward, by an amendment, I believe, it was provided that it must be considered "the true intent and meaning of this act not to legislate slavery into any state or territory, or to exclude it therefrom, but to leave the people thereof perfectly free to form and regulate their own domestic institutions in their own way, sub- ject only to the constitution of the United States." I have called his attention to the fact that when he and some others began arguing that they were giving an increased degree of liberty to the people of the territories over and above what they formerly had on the question of slavery, a question was raised whether the law was enacted to give such unconditional liberty, to the people; and to test the sincerity of this mode of argument, Mr. Chase, of Ohio, introduced an amendment in which he made the law-if the amendment were adopted-ex- pressly declare that the people of the territory should have the power to exclude slavery if they saw fit.
I have asked attention also to the fact that Judge Douglas and those who acted with him voted that amendment down, notwithstanding it expressed ex- actly the thing they said was the true intent and meaning of the law. . I have called attention to the fact that in subsequent times a decision of the Supreme Court has been made, in which it has been declared that a territorial legislature has no constitutional right to exclude slavery. And I have argued and said that for men who did intend that the people of the territory should have the right to
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exclude slavery absolutely and unconditionally, the voting down of Chase's amendment is wholly inexplicable. It is a puzzle, a riddle. But I have said that with men who did look forward to such a decision, or who had it in contempla- tion that such a decision of the Supreme Court would or might be made, the voting down of that amendment would be perfectly rational and intelligible. It would keep Congress from coming in collision with the decision when it was made.
Anybody can conceive that if there was an intention or expectation that such a decision was to follow, it would not be a very desirable party attitude to get into, for the Supreme Court-all or nearly all its members belonging to the same party-to decide one way, when the party in Congress had decided the other way. Hence it would be very rational for men expecting such a decision to keep the niche in that law clear for it. After pointing this out, I tell Judge Douglas that it looks to me as though here was the reason why Chase's amendment was voted down. I tell him that, 'as he did it, and knows why he did it, if it was done for a reason different from this, he knows what that reason was, and can tell us what it was. I tell him, also, it will be vastly more satisfactory to the country for him to give some other plausible, intelligible, reason why it was voted down than to stand upon his dignity and call people liars. (Loud cheers.)
Well, on Saturday he did make his answer; and what do you think it was? He says if I had only taken upon myself to tell the whole truth about that amendment of Chase's no explanation would have been necessary on his part --- or words to that effect. Now, I say here that I am quite unconscious of having suppressed anything material to the case, and I am very frank to admit if there is any sound reason other than that which appeared to one national, it is quite fair for him to present it. What reason does he propose? That when Chase came forward with his amendment expressly authorizing the people to exclude slavery from the limits of every territory, General Cass proposed to Chase, if he (Chase) would add to his amendment that the people should have the power to introduce or exclude, they would let it go. (That is substantially all of his reply.) And because Chase would not do that, they voted his amendment down. Well, it turns out, I believe, upon examination, that General Cass took some part in the little running debate upon that amendment, and then ran away and did not vote on it at all. (Laughter.) Is not that the fact? So confident, as I think, was General Cass, that there was a snake somewhere about, he chose to run away from the whole thing. This is an inference I draw from the fact that, though he took part in the debate, his name does not appear in the ayes and noes. But does Judge Douglas's reply amount to a satisfactory answer? (Cries of "Yes, Yes," and "No, No.") There is some little difference of opinion here. (Laughter.)
But I ask attention to a few more views bearing on the question of whether it amounts to a satisfactory answer. The men who were determined that that amendment should not get into the bill and spoil the place where the Dred Scott decision was to come in, sought an excuse to get rid of it somewhere. One of these ways-one of these excuses -- was to ask Chase to add to his proposed amendment a provision that the people might introduce slavery if they wanted to. They very well knew Chase would do no such thing, that Mr. Chase was one
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of the men differing from them on the broad principle of his insisting that free- dom was better than slavery,-a man who would not consent to enact a law, penned with his own hand, by which he was made to recognize slavery on the one hand and liberty on the other, as precisely equal; and when they insisted on his doing this, they very well knew they insisted on that which he would not for a moment think of doing, and that they were only bluffing him. I believe (I have not, since he made his answer, had a chance to examine the journals or Congressional Globe and therefore speak from memory) I believe the state of the bill at that time, according to parliamentary rules, was such that no member could propose an additional amendment to Chase's amendment. I rather think this is the truth,-the Judge shakes his head. Very well. I would like to know, then, if they wanted Chase's amendment fixed over, why somebody else could not have offered to do it? If they wanted it amended, why did they not offer the amend- ment? Why did they stand there taunting and quibbling at Chase? (Laughter.) Why did they not put it in themselves?
But to put it on the other ground: Suppose that there was such an amend- ment offered, and Chase's was an amendment to an amendment; until one is disposed of, by parliamentary law you cannot pile another on. Then all these gentlemen had to do was to vote Chase's on, and then, in the amended form in which the whole stood, add their own amendment to it, if they wanted to put it in that shape. This was all they were obliged to do, and the ayes and noes show that there were thirty-six who voted it down, against ten who voted in favor of it. The thirty-six held entire sway and control. They could in some form or other have put that bill in the exact shape they wanted. If there was a rule preventing their amending it at the time, they could pass that, and then, Chase's amendment being merged, put it in the shape they wanted. They did not choose to do so, but they went into a quibble with Chase to get him to add what they knew he would not add, and because he would not, they stand upon that flimsy pretext for voting down what they argued was the meaning and in- tent of their own bill. They left room thereby for this Dred Scott decision, which goes very far to make slavery national throughtuot the United States.
I pass one or two points I have, because my time will very soon expire; but I must be allowed to say that Judge Douglas recurs again as he did upon one or two other occasions, to the enormity of Lincoln,-an insignificant individual like Lincoln-upon his ipse dixit charging a conspiracy upon a large number of members of Congress, the Supreme Court and two presidents, to nationalize slavery. I want to say that, in the first place, I have made no charge of this sort upon my ipse dixit. I have only arrayed the evidence tending to prove it, and presented it to the understanding of others, saying what I think it proves, but giving you the means of judging whether it proves it or not. This is precisely what I have done. I have not placed it upon my ipse dixit at all.
On this occasion, I wish to recall his attention to a piece of evidence which I brought forward at Ottawa on Saturday, showing that he had made substan- tially the same charge against substantially same persons, excluding his dear self from the category. I ask him to give some attention to the evidence which I brought forward that he himself had discovered a "fatal blow being struck" against the right of the people to exclude slavery from their limits, which fatal
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blow he assumed as in evidence in an article in the Washington Union, pub- lished "by authority." I ask by whose authority? He discovers a similar or identical provision in the Lecompton constitution. Made by whom? The framers of that constitution. Advocated by whom? By all the members of the party in the nation, who advocated the introduction of Kansas into the Union under the Lecompton constitution.
I have asked his attention to the evidence that he arrayed to prove that such a fatal blow was being struck, and to the facts which he brought forward in support of that charge,-being identical with the one which he thinks so vil- lainous1 in me. He pointed it, not at a newspaper editor merely, but at the president and his cabinet and the members of Congress advocating the Lecomp- ton constitution and those framing that instrument. I must again be permitted to remind him that although my ipse dixit may not be as great as his, yet it some- what reduces the force of his calling my attention to the enormity of my making a like charge against him. (Loud applause.)
Go on, Judge Douglas.
MR. DOUGLAS'S REPLY.
Ladies and Gentlemen: The silence with which you have listened to Mr. Lincoln during his hour is creditable to this vast audience, composed of men of various political parties. Nothing is more honorable to any large mass of peo- ple assembled for the purpose of a fair discussion than that kind and respectful attention that is yielded, not only to your political friends, but to those who are opposed to you in politics.
I am glad that at last I have brought Mr. Lincoln to the conclusion that he had better define his position on certain political questions to which I called his attention at Ottawa. He there showed no disposition, no inclination, to answer them. I did not present idle questions for him to answer, merely for my grati- fication. I laid the foundation for those interrogatories by showing that they constituted the platform of the party whose nominee he is for the senate. I did not presume that I had the right to chatechise him as I saw proper, unless I showed that his party, or a majority of it, stood upon the platform and were in favor of the proposition, upon which my questions were based. I desired simply to know, inasmuch as he had been nominated as the first, last, and only choice of his party, whether he concurred in the platform. which that party had adopted for its government. In a few moments I will proceed to review the answers which he has given to these interrogatories ; but, in order to relieve his anxiety, I will first respond to these2 which he has presented to me. Mark you, he has not presented interrogatories which have ever received the sanction of the party with which I am acting, and hence he has no other foundation for them than his own curiosity. ("That's a fact.")
First, he desired to know if the people of Kansas shall form a constitution by means entirely proper and objectionable, and ask admission into the Union as a state, before they have the requisite population for a member of Congress,
1 Reads : "Villainous."
2 Reads : "those" for "these."
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whether I will vote for that admission. Well, now, I regret exceedingly that he did not answer that interrogatory himself before he put it to me, in order that we might understand, and not be left to infer, on which side he is. ("Good, good.") Mr. Trumbull, during the last session of Congress, voted from the beginning to the end against the admission of Oregon, although a free state, because she had not the requisite population for a member of Congress. ("That's it.") Mr. Trumbull would not consent, under any circumstances, to let a state, free or slave, come into the Union until it had the requisite population. As Mr. Trumbull is in the field, fighting for Mr. Lincoln, I would like to have Mr. Lincoln answer his own question, and tell me whether he is fighting Trum- bull on that issue or not. ("Good, put it to him," and cheers.)
But I will answer his question. In reference to Kansas, it is my opinion that as she has population enough to constitute a slave state, she has people enough for a free state. (Cheers.) I will not make Kansas an exceptional case to the other states of the Union. ("Sound," and "Hear, hear.") I hold it to be a sound rule, of universal application, to require a territory to contain the requisite population for a member of Congress before it is admitted as a state into the Union. I made that proposition in the senate in 1856, and I renewed it during the last session, in a bill providing that no territory of the United States should form a constitution and apply for admission until it had the requi- site population. On another occasion I proposed that neither Kansas nor1 any other territory should be admitted until it had the requisite population. Congress did not adopt any of my propositions containing this general rule, but did make an exception of Kansas. I will stand by that exception. (Cheers.) Either Kansas must come in as a free state, with whatever population she may have, or the rule must be applied to all the other territories alike. (Cheers.) I therefore answer at once, that, it having been decided that Kansas has people enough for a slave state, I hold that she has enough for a free state. ("Good," and applause. )
I hope Mr. Lincoln is satisfied with my answer; ("He ought to be," and cheers.) and now I, would like to get his answer to his own interrogatory -- whether or not he will vote to admit Kansas before she has the requisite popu- lation. ("Hit him again.") I want to know whether he will vote to admit Oregon before that territory has the requisite population. Mr. Trumbull will not, and the same reason that commits Mr. Trumbull against the admission of Oregon, commits him against Kansas, even if she should apply for admission as a free state. ("You've got him," and cheers.) If there is any sincerity, any truth, in the argument of Mr. Trumbull in the senate against the admission of Oregon because she had not ninety-three thousand, four hundred and twenty people. although her population was larger than that of Kansas, he stands pledged against the admission of both Oregon and Kansas until they have ninety-three thousand, four hundred and twenty inhabitants. I would like Mr. Lincoln to answer this question. I would like him to take his own medicine. (Laughter.) If he differs with Mr. Trumbull, let him answer his argument against the admission of Oregon, instead of poking questions at me. ("Right, good, good," laughter and cheers.)
1 Reads: "or" for "por."
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The next question propounded to me by Mr. Lincoln is : Can the people of. a territory in any lawful way, against the wishes of any citizen of the United States exclude slavery from their limits prior to the formation of a state con- stitution ? I answer emphatically, as Mr. Lincoln has heard me answer a hun- dred times, from every stump in Illinois, that in my opinion the people of a territory can, by lawful means, exclude slavery from their limits prior to the formation of a state constitution. (Enthusiastic applause.) Mr. Lincoln knew that I had answered that question over and over again. He heard me argue the Nebraska Bill on that principle all over the state in 1854, in 1855, and in 1856, and he has no excuse for pretending to be in doubt as to my position on that question. It matters not what way the supreme court may hereafter decide as to the abstract question whether slavery may or may not go into a territory under the constitution, the people have the lawful means to introduce it or exclude it as they please, for the reason that slavery cannot exist a day or an hour any- where, unless it is supported by local police regulations. ("Right, right.") Those police regulations can only be established by the local legislature; and if the people are opposed to slavery, they will elect representatives to that body who will by unfriendly legislation effectually prevent the introduction of it into their midst. If, on the contrary, they are for it, their legislation will favor its extension. Hence, no matter what the decision of the supreme court may be on that ab- stract question, still the right of the people to make a slave territory or a free territory is perfect and complete under the Nebraska Bill. I hope Mr. Lin- coln deems my answer satisfactory on that point.
In this connection I will notice the charge which he has introduced in rela- tion to Mr. Chase's amendment. I thought that I had chased that amendment out of Mr. Lincoln's brain, at Ottawa ; (laughter) but it seems that it still haunts his imagination, and he is not yet satisfied. I had supposed that he would be ashamed to press that question further. He is a lawyer, and has been a member of Congress, and has occupied his time and amused you by telling you about parliamentary proceedings. He ought to have known better than to try to palm off his miserable impositions upon this intelligent audience. ("Good," and cheers.) The Nebraska Bill provided that the legislative power and authority of the said territory should extend to all rightful subjects of legislation consistent with the organic act and the Constitution of the United States. It did not make any exception as to slavery, but gave all the power that it was possible for Congress to give, without violating the constitution to the territorial legis- lature, with no exception or limitation on the subject of slavery at all. The fan- guage of that bill which I have quoted, gave full power and the full authority over the subject of slavery, affirmatively and negatively, to introduce it or ex- clude it, so far as the Constitution of the United States would permit. What more would Mr. Chase give by his amendment? Nothing. He offered his amendment for the identical purpose for which Mr. Lincoln is using it-to en- able demagogues in the country to try and deceive the people. ("Good, hit him again," and cheers.)
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