USA > New York > The documentary history of the state of New York, Vol. III pt 2 > Part 13
Note: The text from this book was generated using artificial intelligence so there may be some errors. The full pages can be found on Archive.org (link on the Part 1 page).
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Part 10 | Part 11 | Part 12 | Part 13 | Part 14 | Part 15 | Part 16 | Part 17 | Part 18 | Part 19 | Part 20 | Part 21 | Part 22 | Part 23 | Part 24 | Part 25 | Part 26 | Part 27 | Part 28 | Part 29 | Part 30 | Part 31 | Part 32 | Part 33 | Part 34 | Part 35 | Part 36 | Part 37 | Part 38 | Part 39 | Part 40 | Part 41 | Part 42 | Part 43 | Part 44 | Part 45 | Part 46 | Part 47 | Part 48 | Part 49 | Part 50
Sent up for Concurrence T : HUBBARD Spk!
In Council Septr 11th 1753 ; Read and Concurr'd, and Andrew Oliver, Isaac Royal and Eleazer Porter Esqrs are Joined in the Affair
J : WILLARD Secry.
GOV. SHIRLEY TO GOV. CLINTON.
Boston September 17. 1753. SIR
The two Houses have likewise by their message to me set forth the Proceedings of this Government in order to Vindicate it from any Mistaken Apprehensions, which the Government of New York may have of their Conduct in this Affair, with their desire that I would lay the same before your Excellency ; And have represented to me the severe Treatment
*
1
757
MANOR OF LIVINGSTON.
which one Michal Hallinbeck hath received from some officers in your Excellency's Government (on Account of his being concerned in this Dispute) who refused sufficient Bail for his Appearance and Confined him in a Dungeon.
There are several Declarations taken upon Oath to support the Truth of this Representation ; and the two Houses have desired that I would move your Excellency for this mans Enlargement upon good Bail ; And I cannot but hope that if your Excellency upon Inquiry shall find this matter as it is (in the message to me) represented, you will think it reasonable to gratify us in this request ; And the rather because the Persons belonging to your Government, who were apprehended by our Officers, were readily admitted to Bail.
Without mutual Condescentions on both sides there can be but little Prospect of any accomodation of these Differences ; And I think the Assembly of this Province is well disposed to do every thing consistent with their Honour and with what they conceive to be the Right of this Government to facilitate a peaceable Issue of this unhappy Controversy.
I herewith inclose Copys of the Act of the General Court also the messages above refer'd to for your Excellency's Consideration, and desire you will be pleased to let me know the Determination ot your Government upon these matters as soon as may be Convenient.
I have the Honour to be with very great Regard Sr yr Excellency's most Humble & most Obedient Servt
W. SHIRLEY l'o His Excellency the Honble George Clinton Esq
VOTE OF THE MASS. LEGISLATURE IN RELATION TO MICHAEL HALENBEKE.
Province of the Massachusets Bay
In the House of Represves Septr 14, 1753.
It being represented that Michael Halenbeck lately dwelling on some Lands in Dispute betweer this Governmt & that of New
758
PAPERS RELATING TO THE
York, was sometime past imprisoned in Dutchess County Goal by Order or Warrant from the Authority in New York Province, & unexceptionable Bail refused by the officer ; is still continued in very close confinement & in a very uncomfortable Place, not- withstanding the offer of very sufficient Bail .-- Wherefore
Voted that His Excy the Governour be desired as soon as may be to write very particularly on this affair to his Excy the Governour of New York, the two Houses apprehending that the common Rights of any or all his Majesty's Subjects in such Circumstances are denied him.
Sent up for Concurrence, T. HUBBARD Spk1 In Council Septr 14, 1753, Read & Concur'd THO' CLARKE Depty Secry A. True Copy Examined P Thos CLARKE Depy Secry.
GOV. CLINTON TO GOV. SHIRLEY.
New York 1st October 1753. SIR
I communicated your Excellency's Letter of the 17th ulto and the Papers accompanying it to his Majesty's Council of this Province, who were of Opinion they should be referred to the Committee of the Council and Commissioners appointed to examine into the Eastern Boundaries of this Government, that they might consider of them and make Report to me on the Subject which I have referred accordingly and as soon as I re- ceive their Report shall send you a Copy of it. In the mean time I can assure you from good Information that Michael Hal- linbeek who was lately confined in the Goal of Dutchess County made his Escape from thence with several Debtors Nor can I think he met with any severe Treatment while there-It must be a mistake that he was confined in a Dungeon, there being I am told no such Place belonging to that Goal, and as to Bail being refused for his Appearance, in this too, I imagine your Government has been misinformed for as he was committed on
?
1
1
759
MANOR OF LIVINGSTON.
the Proclamation I issued with the Advice of the Council he could not have been admitted to Bail but by Application to the Chancellor or to one of the Judges of the Supreme Court and I am well assured no such Application was ever made.
I have a just sense of your Excellency's good Intentions to bring this unhappy Controversy about our Boundaries, to an amicable Issue and am fully convinced nothing is more likely to advance this good End than a mutual Condescension and Mode- ration which I shall endeavour to promote by every Method in my Power as long as I continue in the Administration. I am
REPORT ON THE PAPERS FROM MASSACHUSETTS BAY.
MAY IT' PLEASE YOUR HONOR
In obedience to an Order in Council on the 29th day of Septem- ber last referring to the Committee of Council and the Commissioners appointed to examine into the Eastern Boundaries of this province A Letter from his Excellency Governor Shirley to the late Governor Clinton of the 17th of September last together with a Representation of the Council and Assembly of the province of the Massachusets Bay of the 11th September to Governor Shirley and An Act of that Province to appoint Commissioners to examine into the Boundary Line or Lines between Massachusetts Bay and New York and to treat with the Commissioners appointed by the Colony of New York respecting the same As also a Vote of the said Council and Assembly relating to the Confinement of one Michael Hallinbeck in the Goal of Dutchess County We have duly weighed and considered of the same But before we proceed to Report our opinion thereon to your Honour beg leave briefly to recite the proceedings touching the said Matters as they appear in the papers laid before us which we find as follow.
That upon Complaints of Encroachments made by people of the Massachusetts Bay On Lands long since granted under the
760
PAPERS RELATING TO TIIE
great scal of this province a Committee of the Councill of the said province did in their report of the Twenty Eighth of ffebruary Last set in a clear light his Majestys right To the Jurisdiction and soil of the Lands westward of Connecticut river and northward of the Colony of Connecticut as part of this his Majesty's province of New York and then pointed out and Considered all the Grants within their Knowledge, by which the Colony of the Massachusetts Bay have pretended To claim, and showed that they could not under any of them rightfully claim any soil or Jurisdiction west of Connecticut river and proposed that the Generall Court of the Massachusetts Bay should Inform this Government . " By what Warrant they Claim or Exercise "any right To soil or Jurisdiction west of Connecticut river " To which the Generall Court of the Massachusetts Bay after Considering the said report made no answer. But Instead thereof proposed the appointment of Commissioners by Both provinces for settling the Bounds Between the said Colonies.
That the Councill of this province on the first of May Last Exhibited Sufficient reasons why Commissioners ought not To be appointed on the part of this province for that purpose. But that the Colony of the Massachusetts Bay ought to answer the former plain request made Concerning their Warrant, to Claim Westward of Connecticut River.
That on the Twelfth of June Last the General Court of the Massachusetts Bay gave a Generall But no partienlar answer To the said Question Twice proposed to them But Instead thereof resolve to proceed in the matters first Complained of by this Government.
That the Councill of this province on the 19th of July Last. particularly pointed out the defects and Insufficiencys of the answer of the Massachusetts Bay to said Question. AND the injustice of their Resolution to proceed and take upon themselves To be the judges, in Contempt of his Majestys Sole right to Judge in this matter. and that the said Councill propose the sending them a Coppy of the act of this province for appointing Commissioners To Examine into the Eastern Bounds of this Colony, and also propose the stay of Exercising the Jurisdiction of this province on any lands Eastward of our antient grants
761
MANOR OF LIVINGSTON.
till the final Settlement of this Controversy or his Majestys pleasure should be known, if the Massachusetts Bay would make no other Encroachments on the said antient Grants, But that should they Continue their Encroachments it would then be the Indispensable duty of this Government to protect his Majestys Subjects thereof.
That some person or persons pretending To Be Officers of the Massachusetts Bay came into the mannor of Livingston in this province (which manor has been in the quiet possession of Robert Livingston Junr and his Ancestors about Sixty Years under grants of this province) and on or about the nineteenth day of July last with the aid and assistance of a great number of persons in a Riotous manner Entred the house of Robert Vanduesen in the said Mannor of Livingston, and by force took Bound and Carryed away the said Robert Vanduersen and his son Johannes out of the said Mannor of Livingston in Order to Confine them In some Goal of the Government of the Massachusetts Bay pretending they acted under a Warrant or Authority from that Government.
That on the Twenty Eighth day of July Last a proclamation was Issued by the Late Governour Clinton to apprehend the said Rioters and all who should for the future enter upon any Lands granted under the great seal of this province By Colour of any Authority from the Massachusetts Bay or New Hampshire and to Committ them to Goal to remain till delivered by due Course of Law. And That Michael Hallenbeck one of the said Rioters was by Vertue of the said proclamation, apprehended and Committed to the Goal of Dutchess County.
These things premised we shall beg leave to report our opinion on the Papers referred to us and first as to Michael Hallenbeck's confinement in Goal in this province we have seen a Coppy of a Letter from Governour Clinton to Governour Shirley of the first of October Last, acquainting him with Hallenbeck's Escape out of Goal and the mistakes of their Information Concerning him which renders any other answer in Our opinion needless Save that it has been proved to us that the Land on which the said Hallenbeck was settled at the time of the said Riot, has been held by him and Others before him under the said Robert Livingston
762
PAPERS RELATING TO THE
and his ancestors as part of the Mannor of Livingston above Sixty Years upon annual rents.
We Conceive that the Massachusets Bay could not with any propriety, Interfere in the matter of his Imprisonment even had his Bail been refused after proper application which however was not done.
As to the said Representation of the 11th of September
The two Houses of the Massachusetts Bay declare therein that " they proposed the mutual appointment of Commissioners for Set- tling the Boundary Line [ which ] this New York Government did not agree to. But on the advice of the Council there in a very Magisterial manner It was demanded of this Government what right they had to soil or Jurisdiction west of Connecticut river."
Upon which we Beg Leave to remark that when they made the proposal to appoint Commissioners which was on the 12th of Aprill they had the report, of the Councill of this province of the 28th of ffebruary under their Consideration In which the Question which they are pleased to Term Magisterial was Con- tained and that it was a proper and the only Rational Question that Could be put will appear upon Considering that report and in part from the purport of it herein Before set forth. ' Tis a question to which this Government had Intitled it self To a fair answer by the rule of Equality of doing To us as we had done to them by our haveing given a fair answer. in such manner as if the Like question had been put by the Massachusets Bay to this Government, and ' Tis a question We suppose they would have answered, & thereby have set forth their right if any other they had than what by that report is pointed out and shown to be void.
We would further remark that they Omitt the reason given by the Council here on the first of May Last why it was improper to appoint Commissioners for the purpose Requested and aro pleased to Introduce this which they call Magisterial as if it had Been the answer of this province to their request But why this representation of the matter is made by them, they can best account.
To the next paragraph wherein they Question What the Councill lere had declared in their Report of the Ist of May Concerning their knowledge of this affair, We say the Council
763
MANOR OF LIVINGSTON.
here are on their Oaths in all their Transactions as Councillors and it seems to stand in need of some Apology to call in question what they had so declared.
They are then pleased to Express themselves thus " As diverse of our ancient and best Towns had been settled West of this river about an hundred years and the Shire Town of Springfield , near an hundred and Twenty years" with respect to Those things they might have been so and yet not have Come to the Knowledge of the Councill here, and if they are so (which we know not) Yet we do not apprehend that they will make a Title to any Lands against his Majesty.
On the first reading of the above paragraph few of us doubted but that the Shire Town of Springfield had been situated on the west side of Connecticut river Till we were informed that it is on the East side of that river & that Mr Poplis Large map Rep- resents it so which Information some of us doubted and still doubts the Truth of, Because of the Difficulty of Reconciling it with what was Conceived the Obvious sense of the above . paragraph.
We believe that their Committee did Last May Enter into the Manor of Livingston (quietly possessed under a grant of this province about Sixty years without any pretence of the Massa- chusetts Bay) and are Informed that notwithstanding the said Robert Livingston had then offered to shew them his Title and had actually shewn them a Coppy of the said report of the 28th ffebruary and also the report of their Generall Court of the 12th of Aprill proposing To appoint Commissioners for the Settlement of the Boundarys in question and had represented to them the injustice of their proceedings and the undue means taken to Corrupt his Tenants and to induce them to disown his title and pay him no more Rents and even after the said Committee of the Generall Court had appeared Satisfied of the Injustice which had been done to him and had in his presence recommended to his 'Tenants To pay their rents and agree with him as well as they Could till the line was settled Yet Several persons did abont ten days after proceed by order of the said Comme as we are Inform- ed to the Surveying and running a line within the said mannor
. 764
PAPERS RELATING TO THE
and we believe that Instead of the said Committecs agreeing with him " that all proceedings should be stop't till further Orders were taken by the Two Governments" They did Only recommend to his Tenants the Conduct above set forth. But that he agreed to give up his mannor or any part of it To them or to any of his Corrupted Tenants or to lay aside the Exerciseing his just right within his mannor as is in part Insinuated we think is against reason to Believe. And as to Josiah Lumis Mr Livingston has proved before us that he was for about Six years a Tenant at Will on his Mannor and that about two years agoe he was warn- ed to go off and Mr Livingston requested him to provide some other place out of his Mannor whereon the said Lumis by Letters shown to us, Beged leave of M' Livingston to stay so long as to raise one crop of Summer Grain and promised then to remove which request Mr Livingston complyed with but when he had gathered that Crop Mr Livingston was Informed that Lumis was preparing to put in another Crop whereupon he sent Lumis no- tice that if he did put in another Crop he might depend on it he should not reap it But notwithstanding that, in defiance of Mr Livingston he did put in another Crop and gave out that Massa- chusets-Bay would defend him, and he with many others of Mr Livingston's Tenants, were prevailed On to sign the petition (In the Representation before us set forth) To have grants from the Massachusets Bay, for which Reason it became Mr Livingston's duty, if he would preserve his Mannor and Tenants to perform what he had declared That Lumis should not reup that Crop and Mr Livingston in July last went with a Sufficient number of people and did accordingly Cutt Down and Carry away that Crop as it was Lawfull & right for him to do.
No authority in the County of Hampshire had any Right To take Cognizance of any offence (if that was one) done in the manor of Livingston within this province and it was highly Criminal in any of their Officers to Execute any warrants there, and the demand of the Delivery up of those officers to be sent here for their Tryalls we do not apprehend was extraordinary or unprecedented but Rational and Just for suppose officers of this Province, by a Warrant from him, went to Boston, and Broke
!
765
MANOR. OF LIVINGSTON
Open a house there, and brought away the people, and Committed them to Goal here, for an offence done in Boston, would it be very Extraordinary or unprecedented, to demand those officers from this Government for their tryalls in Boston, for that high Crime Committed there by them ? But the Cases are alike for the Manor of Livingston we Conceive to be as clearly part of this province as Boston is part of Massachusetts-Bay, and while the said Report of the 28th of february Last, and what they call the Magisterial Question therein, stands unanswered, we Believe it will appear so to every Impartial man who reads it.
The Massachusets Government have been pleased to appoint a time and place for the meeting of their Commissioners with those of this province : If they would have been pleased to have Recollected that the Government of this province is his Majesty's Immediate Government, which theirs is not, it would have been something more Decent to haue referred the nameing of those things to this Government.
And as his Majesty is Concerned in the Controversy, and no Settlement which can be made by any authority Derived from Both Governments without the Royal Direction participation and Concurrence, can be Binding on the Crown. we Conceive that the appointment of Commissioners for that purpose would not only be fruitless and Ineffectual to the Determination of the Controversy but also Derogatory To the rights of the Crown and disrespectfull to his most Sacred Majesty.
Had the Government of the Massachusets Bay giuen a full and perfect Answer to the Report of the 28th of ffebruary last and shown a Colour of Title they had by Grants of the Crown to Soil or Jurisdiction West of Connecticut River. And shown any reasonable Cause to doubt whether the Connecticut River was the Eastern Boundary of this province. It's possibly there might from thence have arisen some Cause for the meeting of Commissioners of Both sides to Come to a right understanding on the Doubtfull matters thereby arisen But while the Title of this Province to be Bounded by Connecticut River, does stand Clear in that Report and no Title appears For the Massachusetts Bay to any soil or Jurisdiction west of that River We cannot apprehend any use even for the meeting of Commissioners, nor
1
766
PAPERS RELATING TO THE
that its in the power of this Government to give their Commis- sioners any other Instructions than to receive the answer of the Massachusetts Bay to the matters in the said report, To deliver which we see no need of the Charge of the meeting of Commis- sioners on either side, when it may be done by a Letter by the post.
There are some other facts set forth in the said Representation which we think are of very little or no Consequence to the matter in question, whether they be as set forth or not, for which reason we have declined Examining into them and takeing any other than this notice of them.
As To his Excellency Governour Shirley's said Letter we agree in opinion with him, that there ought to be Mutual Condescentions on both sides, and that there can be But Little prospect of any Accomodation of those differences withont them, and whatever Condescention i's reasonable to be granted by this Government, we doubt not will Be Complyed with when requested, and as Mr Livingston has already been at very considerable charge con- cerning the apprehending of Vanduersent & his son and procuring Bail for them we beg Leave to recommend it to your honour to desire of Governour Shirley that the said Vanduersens and their Bail be discharged to save further Expence in that matter.
And lastly As this Controversy hath already subsisted a Long time and in the present Method of carrying it on is likely to be protracted to a very unreasonable length without the least Appearance of its determination We pray your Honour will be pleased to lay this Report before the Governmt of the Massachu- sets Bay to be Communicated to the next General Court hopeing that they will come to a Resolution to signify to this Government on what their Claim to Soil or Jurisdiction Westward of Connectient River is founded, and how far the same extends : that this Government may Consider of the same, and do therein what shall appear just and reasonable. But if that Government should still decline, or neglect to take this Step, we shall, agreeable to the Trust reposed in us, as soon as may be prepare, and lay before your Honour, a proper Representation of the several matters, which shall have come to our Knowledge, and
767
MANOR OF LIVINGSTON.
may be thought material in this Controversy In order to be transmitted to his Majesty.
All which is neverthless humbly submitted
By order of the Commce
JNº CHAMBERS Chairman
New York By order of the Commissioners PAUL RICHARD Chairman.
16 Novem' 1'753
MR ROBT LIVINGSTON TO LT GOV. DE LANCEY.
Mannor Livingston ye 12 ffebr 1754 MAY IT PLEASE YOUR HONOUR
As I still continue to be troubled by the people of the Massa- chusets Government I find myself Obliged to address your Honour for assistance and protection as an Inhabitant of this Province, which from the Long personal acquaintance I have had of your honour, and your Love for Justice, to protect the Inosent, and punish the Guilty, leaves me no rooms to doubt of your Honours readiness to defend me against the Ineroachments of these rest- less people, and to fall upon somno way Effectually to protect me from their Insults for the future.
Two of my Tenants Michial Halenbeck and Josiah Loomis the former a tenant for above thirty years, & the latter about 12 whome as he was an ore Diger my Late Father gave liberty to build a small house on his ore bed for the Conveniency of his family, these two persons have been to Boston this winter, with David Ingersol of Sheffield, alias Westenhook, to Solicit the General Court for my Lands and returned 16 days agoe in high Spirits & Report among my other tenants that they had each C10, given them by the General Court to bear their Expences and incouraged to go on in troubleing me with assurance to be baild by them in ease this Government Should order them in Goal and to have all their Charges paid them, that a Committee was to come out about the middle of march to lay out a township in my mannor and that they had a letter from the General Court to M' Lydius to bail Joseph Pain whome I last fall sued for
:
768
PAPERS 'RELATING TO THE
Trespass for distroying upwards of 1100 trees near my Furnace on which he was committed to Albany Goal, with which letter Pains wife is gone up. to Albany but not yett returned, tho' daily expected with her husband, whome I doubt not but she will bring with her, These proceedings of the General Court if true (which from their late behaviour I have no reason to doubt) have a manifest tendency to Confusion and hostility, many of my tenants who were before this casy and Quiet now begin to be Shy of coming to my house as usual and I have reason to fear that they will join the Committee against me when they come to lay out my Lands.
Wherefore I must intreat your Honour to order the Sheriff of this County to Raise the posse Comitatus & come to my assistance as soon as he shall have notice from me that this Committee is come, in order to take & confine them as rioters, and the Justices of the County that they be Vigilant also to Suppress this riot or whatever else your Honour and the Members of his Majestyes Councill shall Judge necessary to be done on this occasion.
And I must beg your Honour that you will be pleased to advise me how I am to behave in this dangerous affair
The Honourable Committee and Commissioners of our Province, I hope has before this, drawn up a Representation of this affair of the Massachusets Government and presented it to your Honour to be transmitted to the Lords of trade, as this is necessary and of great Consiquence to me, as well as to many more in this province, the more so, as I am informed that the General Court of the Massachusets Bay were to do this Last Sessions, I hope your Honour will be pleased if ours be not yett Compleated, to recommend the same to be done speedily, and your Honour will Infinitly oblige
Need help finding more records? Try our genealogical records directory which has more than 1 million sources to help you more easily locate the available records.