USA > New York > New York City > History of the New Netherlands, province of New York, and state of New York : to the adoption of the federal Constitution. Vol. II > Part 30
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Chancellor Livingston noticed an errour. The senate had not a right to declare war ; it required the whole legislature. The power of recall would subject the senator to the parties in the state.
Mr. Richard Morris, from the city and county of New York, spoke for the first time, and advocated the freedom of senators from a power of recall.
Mr. G. Livingston asked, if any person would suppose that a state being invaded, any other state would refuse its protection ?
Mr. Harrison not only agreed that a vigorous government was necessary, but that it be divided into two houses. The lower house represents the people, the senate is to give stability to government. He did not agree to either rotation or recall. He would have the meritorious senator liable to re-election. Shall we deprive the people of the power of re-electing a man who has proved he can serve them ?.
Chancellor Livingston said, the power of recall would enable the state legislatures to annihilate the government.
Mr. Smith said, the state legislatures, by neglecting to re- appoint at the end of six years, had the power of destroying the government.
Mr. Lansing said, it had been already proved that the power of recall was not likely to be used, as it had not been used under the old government. He would agree that the state recalling should be obliged to re-appoint.
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Mr. Hamilton advocated stability and vigour in the government. Every republick should have a permanent body to check the fluc- tuations of a popular assembly. This body should be small-hold office for a considerable time-be the centre of political knowledge. The amendment would deprive the senate of its permanency. The state governments have a natural superiority over the general gov- ernment. We are to guard against local prejudices. The object of the convention in forming the senate was to prevent fluctuations and cabals. The senators will look up to the state legislatures. Instability has been the prominent and defective feature in most republican systems. Now is the time to apply the remedy.
Mr. Lansing had not had his opinions changed by the arguments urged by the Federalists, i. e. Hamilton, Chancellor Livingston, etc. He admitted the necessity of two houses in the legislature. He would not have the Federal government independent. The states having no constitutional control, would be gradually extinguished. The people would become subjects instead of citizens. The states had no power to contend with the general government. The people must rebel or wait till the long term of the senators expired, and then elect others.
Mr. Smith observed, that the checks in the amendment either were or were not sufficient to give stability to the government, and he considered that the only question.
Wednesday, June 25th. Mr. Smith resumed. He still adhered to the notion of rendering the same men ineligible for six years, after serving six years as senators. He did not wish the senate to be per- pctual, although stable. He urged other arguments in favour of ro- tation. He then argued for the power to recall. He feared the people would be tired of paying officers for the state governments, and that the state legislatures would have nothing to do. In time the general government would swallow up all. He insisted upon the fear, or danger of corruption, by means of the offices in the dis- posal of the general government. He insisted the representatives in the state governinents were more under the eyes, and in fear of the people than representatives in congress would be.
Mr. Hamilton observed on the plausibility of his opponents. He answers the objection, that the legislatures and not the people appoint the senate, by showing that the legislatures represent the people. The senate should be so formed as to check the state governments. The check upon the senator is, that his future existence depends upon his state. " We have in this state a duty of 6d per pound on salt, and it operates lightly and to advantage," but to some states it would be very burthensome. The eastern states would oppose a salt tax, laid by congress. Their senators might see the reason for this-would it be wise to give the state power of recall ? Six years is a period short enough for stability in the senate. One third
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of them go out at the end of two years, two thirds in four, and the whole in six. There will be a constant and frequent change. There is a difference between the rights of a state and its interests. The rights are defined by the constitution, which has nothing to do with the interests. "Congress can no more abolish the state gov- ernments than they can dissolve the Union." Factions in congress have arisen from state prejudices. The principle of rotation would cause the senator to attend more to his own interest-he will en- deavour to perpetuate his power by unconstitutional means. The amendment would discard two men, however valuable, and replace them by men untried. As to corruption, the president has offices at his disposal. But how many offices are there for which a man would relinquish his senatorial dignity ? Very few.
Mr. Smith believed that factions might be in existence in the senate and unknown to the legislatures of the states. Violent fac- tions have existed in congress respecting foreign matters " of which the publick are ignorant." Some things have happened which are not proper to be divulged. There are other causes of parties, be- sides the clashing of state interests.
Chancellor Livingston observed, the committee should remember that the circumstances of the country were altered, by the knowledge that New Hampshire had adopted the constitution. The confede- ration was now dissolved. The question now before the convention is one of policy and expediency. He looked with horrour on the idea of disunion. Since yesterday, he felt that the news had made a solemn impression on him.
Although it is acknowledged that the people at large did not or could not judge what was best for them as a nation, yet state legis- latures might have this knowledge ; yet he thought them incom- petent judges of what was best for the Union. He thought the new constitution had provided every check necessary for the senate.
Mr. Smith observed upon an assertion of some one, that a majority of the states would not agree to the amendment. He said the constitution had been carried in most of the states, so that no opportunity for amendment was afforded. As to the change of circumstances, he said it made none in his views.
Mr. Lansing said, it is true the ninth state had ratified the consti- tution, still it is our duty to maintain our rights. Let the nine states make the experiment. He wished for union, but thought that New York could provide alone for her own safety. He wished a reso- lution to this purpose, that nothing in the constitution authorized congress to alter any regulations of any state respecting the times, places, or manner of holding elections for senators or representa- tives, unless the state failed to make or could not make the neces- sary regulations.
Mr. Jay observed that, if by design or accident, the states should
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not appoint representatives, there should be a remedy. He believed this was the design of the Federal convention.
R. Morris suggested that the power of continuing the govern- ment ought to belong to the Federal representatives of the people.
Governour Clinton reprobated the representations made of the weakness of New York ; he likewise denied the distinctions made between the house of representatives and senate. All were elected by the people. Their will was law.
Mr. Jay thought the Governour had mistaken the gentleman. The only question was, how this will is to be expressed.
Mr. Melancthon Smith proposed further amendments, but with- drew them.
June 26th ; Thursday. Mr. M. Smith again proposed dividing the state into districts for elections.
Mr. Duane thought no one state should dictate the mode of elec- tions to others. This power, by the constitution, resides in each state.
Mr. Smith only wished this liberty secured to each state.
Mr. Duane thought the mode proposed would embarrass elec- , tions, as it made a majority of all the votes necessary, to return a member.
Mr. Lansing proposed to modify Mr. Smith's amendment so that congress could not prevent the states passing laws to divide the state into districts ; which being agreed to, the committee passed the succeeding paragraphs, without debate, until they came to the second clause of Section 6th. Mr. Lansing then proposed this amendment : "No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he is elected, be appointed to any office under the United States; and no officer of the United States shall be elected a representative." On this, there was no debate.
Mr. Williams objected to the powers given congress in respect to taxes, and moved that no excise shall be imposed on any arti- cle the growth, or manufacture of the United States-no direct taxes be laid, but when moneys arising from imposts and excise are found insufficient-and under certain restrictions.
June, 27th-Mr. Melancthon Smith. Taxes are of the utmost importance. The constitution gives powers to congress to raise money in all ways, except by duties on erports. The indivi- dual states in time, will have no right to raise any money. Under the present new system, he thought, the state taxes and United States, would clash. The power of the confederacy would swal- low up the States. They will be undermined and sink gradually. The former confederacy had upon the whole worked well. Sonie certain specifick revenue must be reserved to the states.
Mr. Williams followed on the same side. This clause would destroy the state governments. A poll tax is unjust and oppressive. VOL. II. 35
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Chancellor Livingston agreed that no government could exist without revenues ; that consideration of the states must be avoided, and that " the extent of our country will not admit of a represen- tation upon principles, in any great degree democratick." . The amendment of Mr. Williams, excludes excise on products and ma- nufactures of the United States, and says, a requisition shall precede an imposition of a direct tax. In time, we may become manufac- turers, and the necessity of imposing excise on home products arise. As to requisitions, we have seen enough of them to be sus- picious. The United States may be obliged to lay direct taxes, and if requisitions precede, we shall be laughed at-we lose the time when the money is wanted, and waste it in petitioning for requisitions, and in petitions which are never granted. The state that is invaded has always been the first to pay the requisition : the state unharmed paid little or nothing. Indirect taxes will be gene- rally sufficient: bnt congress must have power in case they are not. If the requisition is refused, the amendment proposes compul-
sion. This supposes a complete set of officers, etc., kept in readi-
ness. If resistance is made, who will lend to congress the money wanted in the first place, and that necessary to compel obedience ? The avails of direct taxes, are the funds to be pledged for borrow- ing. This state has been and will be (in time of foreign war,) the theatre of war. It is for our interest to give congress power to relieve us by imposing direct taxes. The United States govern- ment, and that of the states, will not clash in laying taxes. It is upon the interest of the United States, or of congress, we must depend. The state has unlimited power of direct taxation upon itself: and when it has laid a great tax on any one article, it would be unwise in congress to tax the same : it would not be the inter- est of congress to do so. We have resources enough to support our state and our general government-if we have not, let us have only one-a state-or a consolidated government. As to the assertion, (made by Mr. Smith) that every government will raise more money than it can use-I do not understand it-let the con- vention keep in mind, that the accounts of the general government are to be submitted, from time to time, to publick inspection.
Mr. Smith remarked, that from time to time, meant anything or nothing-from century to century.
Chancellor Livingston said, the representatives would consider economy essential to their popularity.
Mr. Hamilton remarked, that when we had given a proper bal- ance to the branches of the government, and fixed representation upon pure principles, we may safely furnish it with the necessary powers.
We want (he proceeds,) a free government with mutual checks.
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One branch of the legislature by the constitution is to be elected by the people-the same people-who choose the state legislatures. They are for two years, and then return to their constituents. Here the people govern. You have another branch, u senate, chosen by your state legislatures. You have an executive created by an admi- rable mode of election. Here are checks : but you must trust your government with necessary powers ; you must have confi- dence in it. Government must have the power of the sword and the purse : but you do not place both in one house : the purse is with one branch, and the sword with another. Is it not the same in the New York state government ?- The state government has not to provide against invasion, nor maintain fleets and armies- nor to regulate commerce, make alliances, or form treaties of peace. Their object is civil and domestick, peace and justice. But the general government has all the former cares and expenses. In Great Britain, the expenses of peace to those of war, are one to fourteen. The proportion between the state and general govern- ment, will be infinitely greater. Where then, ought the resources to be lodged ? Your government must have power to call the ability of the country into action. There can be no exclusive revenues. The imposts may so increase as to render direct turation unneces- sary. The laws of the states must not touch the appropriated resources of the United States : but the United States may relin- quish to the states. It may be necessary to borrow-and to bor- row you must have pledges to give. You must give credit to your government. It would be melancholy, if true, that a free govern- ment cannot exist in an extensive country. This idea comes from an author unacquainted with representation. The confederacy of states makes the notion still more false. The state governments are absolutely necessary to the Federal system. He uses many arguments to show, that we may more safely trust the general go- vernment than even the state government.
Mr. Hamilton continued : As commerce increased, and know- ledge was let in upon the people, they perceived their own conse- quence-they united with kings to throw off the yoke of the barons or aristocracy. Wherever the popular weight causes the vessel to lean, there will power flow. The constitution is so formed that the states can provide for their own existence. The laws of the United States are supreme for constitutional objects, and so are the state laws, in the same way. They are not hostile. The United States, and the state government, may tax the same object : but they collect the tax by different officers.
June 2Sth-Mr. Hamilton introduced papers, to show how much the state of New York suffered by the system of requisitions during the late war.
Governour Clinton supposed this was in consequence of a con-
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versation with him, and thought the papers related to matters previous to the accession of all the states to the union.
Mr. Duane acknowledged the conversation, but thought it a duty to bring forward these papers. He was convinced that our greatest misfortune was the want of such a government as is now offered.
Governour Clinton did not wish to withhold these papers. After some further discussion, the papers were read. And Gov. Clin- ton said, that the severe distresses of the people at the time, made them think the confederation too weak. He declared that he was a friend to a strong and efficient government ; but he feared an extreme. If the proposed constitution is shown to be safe, he would drop all opposition. He always wished to grant an impost to congress.
Mr. Duane asked the governour, if he had not received at times from the commander-in-chief notices, that if New York did not furnish supplies, the army must be disbanded.
The governour said it was true. He said, he had been sent for to councils of war, where the state of the army was laid before him, and it was melancholy indeed. In one instance, this state by impressing flour from the people, saved the army from disso- lution.
Mr. Hamilton said, the view in introducing the papers, was to show the evils this state suffered, because requisitions were insuf- ficient to call forth the exertions of the country, or its resources.
This distress occasioned the mad project of creating a dictator : end Governour Clinton's opposition to that project is known, and applauded. He objects to Governour Clinton, that he opposes the new constitution, but does not offer a substitute, by which to gain strength; without danger to our liberties. When congress requested an impost for twenty five years, this state opposed it. New York and Rhode Island prevented it. In respect to the proposed tax- ation, there is not a word in the constitution, which gives an ex- clusive power to the United States, except in imposts. Other taxes are concurrent, and both the general government and the state, tax the same thing, and the individual cannot pay both : the first come, first served. Neither power is supreme. The impost given to the United States, gives them power to discharge the debt, and absolves the individual states from responsibility.
If we are to unite, it is for great purposes, and these require great resources and powers. The United States will have exten- sive and uniform objects of taxation. The states a great variety, to which only state laws can apply. The legislature of New York can even authorize a poll tax. There may exist circumstances to make even such a tax necessary ; and when necessary, the people must submit to it. He accused the opposition of jealousy and
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conjecture. No one difficulty in the constitution can be pointed out, that will not apply to the state governments. The most am- bitious men will be careful to draw forth the resources of the people as gently as possible. The supposed want of money in New York is complained of, but it is a want of confidence in the old govern- ment of the Union. Mr. Hamilton contended against the amend- ment which required that no direct tax should be laid until impost and excise had proved insufficient. He said, New York, from its situation and extent of unsettled lands, must ever be a commercial and agricultural state. If the general government is restrained from free application to other resources it will push imposts to an ex- treme. Excessive impositions on commerce will be injurious to the state of New York. Excise will operate the same way. Our neigh- bours not possessing our advantages for commerce and agriculture, will be manufacturers, and protected by the amendment, and we burthened. It is the interest of New York that those articles should be taxed in which our neighbours excel us ; excises on manufac- tures are for our advantage. The nature of our union requires that we should give up our state impost. With apologies for his warmth, and objections to gentlemen supposing that the advocates of the new government were influenced by ambition, Mr. Hamilton concluded.
Mr. Lansing, in reply, said it was conceded that the constitution gave powers to congress to lay all kinds of taxes. Litigations will succeed, which must be carried to the courts of the United States. They will give extensive jurisdiction to the courts of the federation. The amendment would prevent excises on manufactures of the United States, and prevent direct taxes until requisitions have been made. The Federal government being but part of a system, ought not to have the whole power of exacting support. The general government should have general powers. As to requisitions, those now proposed are different from those acknowledged formerly to have been incompetent; the amendment requires carrying the laws of congress to the doors of individuals, and not calling on whole communities. The states have complied with the requisitions, by making laws for their effect ; but it has been individuals who have not obeyed. Congress will have by the amendment the right to enforce the requisitions.
Mr. Lansing objected to the supremacy of the laws of the Uni- ted States. He objected to the assertion that danger to the state governments could only exist in a distempered fancy. These im- pressions thus fanciful to him, have made serious impressions on good and great men. History shows the encroachments on the rights of the people, It is admitted that the state governments are necessary. Mr. Hamilton has said, the idea of hostility be- tween the general and state governments is chimerical ; but Mr.
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Lansing was persuaded such hostility would exist. Lansing charged Hamilton with holding different opinions in the conven- tion at Philadelphia. Hamilton denied this, and an altercation took place, which is here omitted.
On the 30th of June, the same dispute occupied a great part of the day. When the debate again took place, Mr. Williams, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Jones spoke. Smith said that the national head ought not to have all the means; nor should the power charged with the national defence have all the revenues. In England, the king had the power of war, but parliament of supply. He would have the constitution plain, and not liable to different constructions. He thought the national government would have too great control .over the states, and could set aside the powers in the state, neces- sary for its well being. He continued to remark on the necessary hostility.
Mr. Duane addressed the convention. He thought the system of requisitions ought to be forever discarded. He hoped yet to see a navy of the United States. He spoke of the necessity of both ariny and navy, to repress the existing aggressions of Great Britain.
Mr. Jay began, by describing the general characteristicks for a government of the United States. Would it be proper that the state governments should limit the national resources ? Would it be right that the sovereign power of the nation should depend on the will of the several members? That the interest of a part should govern the whole ? As to collecting a direct tax, after requisition ; would not the motives that induced non-compliance likewise induce resistance to collection? A number of states, similarly situated, might unite, and control the general government. He remarked upon taxation, and thought it would be difficult to distinguish some articles of American from foreign manufacture.
Mr. M. Smith remarked upon Mr. Duane's wish for a navy. He thought it would be wild and ridiculous for years to come. He talked of centuries, and did not wish to provide for times so distant. He commented on Washington's circular, complaining of requisitions. He stigmatized Mr. Jay's notion of non-complying states joining to resist congress, as imaginary. They might com- bine to resist a tax, although no requisition had been made.
Chancellor Livingston said, the opposition talk at random, and run into inconsistencies. They differ from each other, and from themselves. They tell us congress will tax to the utmost, and oppress the people, and they tell us congress has not power so to do. They say the state governments will be left powerless. Is the power over property nothing ?- over life and death, nothing ?- Can they not raise money ?- and regulate the militia? The strain of irony and ridicule was continued, and then he said :- The
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states and the United States have distinct objects. They are both supreme : the one as to national objects, the other as to domestick and internal objects. He then returned to ridicule :- And we are told that we are not to make a government for futurity ! We are to make a government of a day !
July 2d-Mr. G. Livingston said, if the clause under con- sideration was not amended we should not have a shadow of liberty left. The new government cannot be depended on. There would be a contest between the general and state governments for the taxes, and collision in the collecting. He endeavoured to ridicule the arguments of the Federalists, but very feebly, and showed him- self wounded by the Chancellor's ridicule, by what approached to personal abuse.
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