USA > Pennsylvania > Colonial records of Pennsylvania, Vol. II > Part 8
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Ordered, that the Papers this day Read at this Board, be commu- nicated to the Representatives at two in the afternoon, and that the Conference be deferr'd till ye 3d hour, to which time the Council is adjourn'd.
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POST MERIDIEM, hora 3a.
Iidem qui antea, Capt. ffinney excepted.
The Repsentatives having perused the Papers sent to them by Ordr, Returned ym again to ye Board, but because they were not yet in a Condition to act, declared they could not take such notice of ym as otherwise they would be Inclined to doe.
The sd Repsent's presenting ym selves for ye Conference appointed the Govr, in Relation to the Request they had made yesterday that they might proceed according to the Charter of Privileges, that is to say, that ye Province Separating themselves from ye Lower Counties, Seeing they would not meet ym, the number of Repsentatv's for Each County in the Province should be advanced to Eight, first Represented the many Inconveniencies that might ensue to ye Prov by a Separacon, as that Tobaccoes being Chiefly their Product & our Principal Returns in Trade to England, should they be Separated & become distinct from us, that Traffick would be so Clogg'd & Incum- bred that it would be wholly lost to us ; that it appeared by the Paper they had Read, the Propry's Right to the said Counties was under Dispute in England, and that their Inhabitants being affected, upon the Provinces raising themselves into a Distinct assembly would in probability remonstrate to the Queen, that having hitherto been under the Govrmt of Pensilvania they were now Rejected & thrown off, & so become utterly destitute of all fform of Govrmt; & yrefore would pray the Queen to take them into her imediate Protection, which would be the readiest meanes utterly to defeat the Propry of what he was endeavoring for in Relacon to them in England. That the Propry had psented to ye Queen a memorial for her approbation of ye Lt Govr, the Result of which (as by his Letter he declared) he Speedily expected to hear wth approbation, because the Lower Coun- ties were under Dispute, & ye Inclinations of ye Court were now to weaken as much as they could, rather then to Strengthen Proprietary Claimes ; 'twas very probable would come to the Govr of Pensilvania alone, wch would Compleat their Desire Effectually and become the act of the Queen" herself, and the Province be Exempt from blame. Upon all which the Govr told them, He Judged in would be prudent in them to Defer their application for a Separation till those matters were brought to some Issue, & till we could hear ffurther of them from England.
The Govr ffurther added that Seeing the Election & Sitting of the Assembly was to be by Charter, wch requir'd the first to be on the first of October & the last on the 14th of the same month, he could not see how an addition could be made to the number as they de- sired, till the first of October should return in Course again, To all wch some of the Chief of the said Representv's replied that the
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Royal Grant from the King to the Propry was only for the province bounded 12 miles northwards of Newcastle, that it was on that Grant or Charter only the Severall first purchasers of Land from ye Propry embarqued, and that they Expected the Privileges for it accordingly, That they had alwayes hitherto by being Yoked with the Lower Counties instead of enjoying the Liberties they expected and Confused, so that nothing for the Provinces and their real good could Ever be advanced, That they had long groaned under the hardship of it, and now an opportunity by the Propry's Grant being putt into their hands to ease ymselves of those troubles they Judged themselves obliged to make use of it for their own Safety & Quiet for ye future, that Delays might at this Juncture prove Dangerous, Revolutions and Changes having often so unexpectedly Come upon Govmts of wch even this was once an Instance by Coll. ffletcher, & therefore they requested they might not be deferr'd ; for ye Encreas- ing ye number might properly be done by ye Govr's writts and there could lie no difficulty there.
But the Govr still pressing to the Representv's the unreasonable- ness of such a Rupture upon the Several arguments aforesaid, and that there could not possibly be any danger of Deferring their ap- plication for some time, especially till they could find a meanes to doe it more honourably & with less blame from the Lower Counties, who would Complain they were thrown off without notice or warning. The whole.was further discoursed and at Length concluded that a free Conference between the members of Council only & the said Representatives should be appointed, & accordingly it was ap- pointed to be held that Evening, upon wch the Reprs withdrew.
And the Board Entering into Consideration what heads would be chiefly necessary to be debated & was argumts used, it was
Resolved, that ye members of Council who were to manage at ye sd Conferance should propose, that whereas the members of ye Lower Counties, in the Last Assembly when the Propry Granted ye sd Charter, seem not to regard or accept of it, for wch reason 'tis most Probable they had made no Election ; and Whereas some persons of the said Counties, since the Province has Elected, have Declared that had Writts been sent to their Sherifs as is usual, they would have elected together with the Province, to the end it may not ap- pear that the Province doth designedly throw off & separate them- selves from the said Counties, without any Cause given on their sides, it will therefore be highly for the Justification of the Province, (should they proceed,) as well as Justice to the said Counties, that they have an opportunity of appearing Given them, that measures may be better concerted, and that should they refuse or neglect to send up members the Province will then be clear, and that from hence no manner of inconveniency can be imagined to Ensue for so small a time as may be sufficient to Issue writts, appoint a time of Elecon, & Know their Resolutions : and further that the members of Council press with all Earnestness the arguments that have before been used, & Endeavour to convince them that notwithstanding the Practices of some, who appearing there ffrds, should Impose upon
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them and Lead them to Confusion, the Govr and Council neither have, nor possibly can have any other scope in these debates with them, than their truest and most real advantage, all being embarqued on the same bottom, & then adjourned till ten in the morning.
At a Council held at Philadia, 8ber the 16th 1702. PRESENT :
ANDREW HAMILTON Esqr., Lieutent. Govr.
Edward Shippen,
Thomas Story,
John Guest,
Caleb Pusey,
Saml. Carpenter,
James Logan, Secry.
Those members of this Board, who according to the Ordr of Yes- terday, had Conferr'd with the Rep'statives Concerning the Effects that might ensue upon a Separation, Reported to the Governor and other members of the Board, that in pursuance of the said Order they had a Conference with the Rep'sentatives, seemed willing fur- ther to Deliberate upon what was proposed when all mett together.
This Board entered further into the Consideration of what mea- sures could be taken to p'vent a Separation, upon wch having spent, some time it was at Length resolved to leave ye whole till it should appear wt ye Rep'sves would propose or conclude on.
POST MERIDIAN.
A Message from ye Reprs desired to know when they might be recd to wait upon the Governr, to wch answer was given that they might forthwith.
The Representatives Elected to serve in assembly for the Province, appeared before the Govr and Council, and in Return to the argumts used & ye Proposals made to ym by the members of Council, Joseph Growdon, in the name of ye rest, declared :
That having spent some further time in Consideration of what had been proposed to them ye Reps had come to this further Resolution, vizt. That the Province and Territories having long acted in Con- junction, and the Charter wch Impowered them to Separate being new and not yet sufficiently proved, yrefore they were of opinion & had Resolved that it would be safer to take some further time to de- liberate upon it, and thereupon do request ye Governr that they might be adjourned for a month or the like space, for an Opportunity to Know the minds of those that had chosen & sent them.
The Govr, with the Council, approved their Request, but desired to know whether this was offerred in Complyance with the Proposal made to them, viz : that there might be time Given for an Opportu- nity of Calling the Lower Counties by writts to act in Conjunction with them, But waving the Question, They replied, That what upon mature Consideration they had Concluded on they had now Deliver'd, & had not agreed to say any thing further on that head, That it was not proper for ym to Consult or direct what Methods were most ad- viseable for ye Govr in that case, to take.
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They Only had to Request that they might have Liberty to Defer their sitting for a month Longer, or as the Govr should think ffitt not much exceeding that time, With which the Govr Concurring he was pleased to Dismiss them at Philadelphia, ye 16th of ye 9th moth Ensuing. And thereupon it was Ordered that writts should be fforth- wth Issued to ye Sherifs of ye 3 Lower Counties to Elect 4 members for Each County on the 2d of ye 9th month next to meet at Philadia the 16th day aforesaid, & by advice of ye Board a form of a writt was Prepared & then adjourned to ye said day.
At a Council held at Philadia, November the 16th, 1702.
PRESENT :
ANDREW HAMILTON, Esq. Lieutent Governour. Edward Shippen, Tho. Story,
Saml. Carpenter,
Capt. ffinney,
William Clark.
Jam. Logan, Secry.
The Govr Informed the Board that such of the members of the Lower Counties, chosen in Pursuance of his writts, as were come to Town, had made their appearance before him this afternoon, and that upon Discourse with them they had given it as their Sentimts that they could by no means at this Time Sitt in Conjunction with the Repsentves Chosen by ye Province, the sd Repsentvs being Chosen by vertue of a Charter, but they of ye Lower Counties, by writts a Considerable Time after to wch ye Govr having Answrd that this Pro- ceeded only from their neglect of Electing at the time the Province had done in Pursuance of the Charter of Privileges.
They Replied & Insisted that the sd Charter was never received by ye members of ye Lower Counties, & yrefore they thought them- selves no way affected with it ; That they not having recd it, It could not be Expected they would elect in Pursuance of what was of no force among them, & that he had told them it was signed by Jos. Growdon, Speaker, by Ordr of the House, of wch they being a part it was equally Obligatory upon them as the rest, but they answered that the Speaker signed that Charter at ye Council Board, & there- fore they were no house at that time nor could he sign it by their Order till such ; moreover that those members of ye Lower Counties who attended with them withdrew at the proposal of ye sd Charter, & yrefore were not concerned with it.
The Govr added that he had used many arguments with them to shew their mistakes as to their first Objections of being called dif- ferent wayes, But as to ye other being matter of ffact he could say nothing to it more than that he believed that Joseph Growdon, ye Speaker, could not be guilty of so ill a thing as to sign fully in the name of ye house what he had no Ordrs for.
All which being Discoursed of, It was at Length Resolved, That a message should be sent to the Repsent's met at Samll. Peres's, to Desire their attendance on ye Govr, and after some Delay Those of the Province appeared but none of ye Territories, of which the Govr Enquired the Reason.
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David Lloyd Informed that when the two Reps'tives were sent by ym of the Province to Inform the Govr & Council that both those of the Province & Territories were ready, they were then met at Samuel Pere's, but when the message Came from the Govr they were with- drawn, that the said Reps of the Province had sent two members to those of the Territories, viz : Griffith Jones and John Swift, to In- form them that the Govr desired their attendance, but that they being withdrawn sent this answer :
That they had since their arrival in Town, waited on the vr & also waited for his Commands for some time, in Company with those of the Province, But that they had now withdrawn to refresh them- selves, and would to-morrow wait on the Govr if there were occa- sion, upon wch those of the Province thinking themselves Obliged to it, appeared without them.
Several Discourses concerning the said message and answer past, wch held some Considerable time.
It was proposed that Seeing they were as yet in no order, nor could be called a house, and their Discourses could not be of any effect till otherwise Regulated, the Govr would be pleased to adjourn them till to morrow to meet those of the Lower Counties at a Convenient hour.
D. Lloyd objected agst the word adjourn, for the Charter Im- powering them to Sitt and meet by their own adjournments, they would betray their trusts should they admitt of any other adjourn- ment; Twas answered they might when they were made a house, but as yt they could not, & therefore in such cases, in New York & the other places, 'was usual for the Govr to adjourn the Repts when mett, but not in a sufficient number.
He added That they Knew not what they would have to doe with the said Members of ye Lower Counties. They of the Province were mett by Charter, and the others by writts; that therefore in his Opinion they could not Joyn, they had mett a month agoe and desired to be qualified, but were not yet to this minute.
Griffth Jones Replied that they were yet but a part, and till they were a Sufficient number they could neither be qualified nor act in any case, with many other arguments.
The Govr desired they should meet him to morrow at ten a Clock, & so they departed.
A Message was Sent to the members of the Lower Counties to Desire, that they would Likewise attend on the Govr at the same hour.
Adjourned.
At a Council held at Philadelphia, November the 17th, Ano. Di. 1702.
The Representatives of both Province and Territories meeting ac- cording to appointment, The Govr told them That Yesterday, not having an Opportunity to speak to them altogether, he Deferred it to this Day, and that perceiving The Lower County Members were
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of opinion that they could not act because elected by different meanes, (to which he had then answered.) He this morning recollect- ing his thoughts, Judged it necessary to give them his reasons altogether more ffully, wch he had put in writing and was read to ye same effect with what he had discoursed to them.
Which having read, the Govr added that those reasons Seemed weighty and of importance to him, & therefore desired they would all goe together, and by conferring about what had been said or objected endeavor to settle the whole, & if possible come to an agreemt.
D. Lloyd answered it would be first necessary to know whether the members of the Lower Counties would be willing to spend so much time with them, if so, he supposed none of the Province would be against it, he further wth this desired that they might have the Charter of Privileges & a Writt.
Joseph Growden or Jasper Yeates, Sd He was of opinion they could not confer together as an Assembly, Not being yet formed into one, To which the Govr agreed, but Replied they might Confer as Representatives of the People; Da. Lloyd-That doubtless in yeir psent Circumstances they were a Convention ; T. Story-That they might act Even as an assembly in his Judgemt.
To wch Robert ffrench answrd, he thought they could by no meanes, but things looked, he added, as if they of ye L. Counties were called only ffor a more plausible Excuse to the Province to Separate. But that he thought it would be no wayes expedient, for as they had hitherto born ye burthen of the day without any profit to themselves, It was reasonable if any advantages were to be reaped for ye future, they of the Lower Counties ought to be Sharers.
Some Offering to Continue the Discourse, It was moved that the Govr having told them what he then had to say it was proper to withdraw.
D. Lloyd moved That if some ffitt psons of ye Council would joyn them in their Consultations it migt be of Service.
It being again moved by Gr. Jones, & others, that they should withdraw, the Govr left to themselves a Place to sitt in, in taking of which some small time being spent, and the Charter & a writt of Election Returned from Kent being delevd to D. Lloyd they with- drew.
The Council Spent some time in Discourse about ye Occasions of an assembly at psent, & of an established Militia in Genl members of assembly.
Ordd that some members of the Council, E. S. S. C. & Tho. Story should joyn according to Request & yn adjourned to 3 in the afternoon.
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At a Council held at Philadia, November the 17th, Post merid : hora 3a.
PRESENT :
The Honeble ANDREW HAMILTON, Esqr., Lieutent Governour.
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E. Shippen, Samuel Carpenter,
Thomas Story, Caleb Pusey,
William Clark,
James Logan.
Joseph Growdon, Dd. LLoyd, Robt. ffrench, & Jaspr Yeats, by Ordr & in ye name of ye Rest of the Repsentavs, appearing before the Govr and Council, Jos. Growdon Spoke to this effect : That the Assembly by whose order they appeared at this Board, having taken what had been discoursed and was proposed in Consideration, they could not find the way clear for them to proceed or act in Legislation together, because of the Objections that before have been started, That the members of the Province were willing to Proceed to Business, But those of the Lower Counties were of opinion they could not Joyn with them on the ffoot they now were, without Betraying their Privileges, and Consenting to now, what they had expressly before refused, vizt : the Charter; However they had thought it would be requisite of the Govr to Inform them what he had to Lay before them, that in Case it should appear to be of great moment & Importance, the Consideration of that might prompt them to find out some meanes of Agreement, So far as to be in a Condition to answer it, for they hoped that notwithstanding the state of things appeared some what Dark to ym at Present, Yet they should not be wanting in Loyalty to the Queen & Service to ye Propry & Govmt In any thing where Necessity Exacted it of them, but would strain a point & over their Resentmts Joyn so far together as to suffer nothing of that Kind to be neglected.
To wch ye Govr answd : That he had two things Chiefly to lay before them : One was the Comands of the Queen to him by my Ld Cornbury, in a Letter wch he had recd the Last Post, wch Letter he delevd to Joseph Growdon to be read and Communicated to ye rest of the members; the other the naked & defenceless State of the Province, which laying open and Exposed to the attacks & Insults of the Enemy in this time of War, both by sea and by Land, would require a Speedy Care, & that it might be taken into Consideration by what meanes they might putt themselves into the best Posture of Defence for their own preservation & Security ; wch two heads he looked upon to be of that Importance, as would require their most mature and deliberate Consideration, & therefore, as such was, to recommend them to them, and further added that the Brigantine Messenger, being now in the River from England, she might bring news that would give them further Light into the psent affairs.
Upon wch some Discourses foreign to their Express message arising, D. Lloyd repeated ye Substance of it & moved that having the Govrs answer they had nothing Else to offer, & thereupon they withdrew, & ye Council adjourned till tomorrow at 9 in the morning.
At a Council held at Philadelphia, November the Eighteenth, Ano Di. 1702.
PRESENT :
The Honeble ANDREW HAMILTON, Esqr. Lt Govr.
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John Guest,
Tho. Story,
Samll. Carpenter,
Caleb Pusey,
William Clark,
James Logan, Secry.
The Council mett, & after several Discourses on the main Subject, adjourned till 3 in the afternoon, the Representatvs not meeting this forenoon.
What the Govr had last night Verbally Discoursed the members, this morning he more fully put in writing & Sent to the Reps's by Judge Guest.
To The Repsentatives of the Province of Pennsilvania and Territories annexed :
What I have Chiefly, Gentlemen, to Recommend to you, is the Providing against what may annoy us by Land or by Sea.
The Greatest Danger we seem to be in by Land is from the ffrench and their Indians of Canada, and ye likeliest method to prevent harm from that Quarter is to Joyn with our neighbours of New York in fortifying ye Frontiers at Albany, and some out passes near it, which the Late King looked upon so necessary to be fortified, that he not only Enjoyned a Quota upon the Several Collonies in North America to assist in it, but Largely Contributed towards it himself, And which now My Ld Cornbury, Governour of New York, Calls for as appears by his Letter now laid before You; no wise enemy as the ffrench is, will adventure to run into ye heart of a Countrey & Leave Garrisons behind them Capable of Cutting of their retreat, and it will neither be safe nor Reputable for this Govmt to lett ye whole Burthen lye upon New York, seeing we are Embarqu'd with them in ye same Bottom, & must ffall under the like if ye Enemy should Possess ym Selves of ye ffrontiers, ffor want of Timely assistance.
As assisting New York in making ffortifications in proper places, is a Likely way to secure us from that Quarter, so there is also a ne- cessity of Providing against Surprize nearer home, & Invasions by sea : when we are known to be in a posture of Defence an Enemy will be Warie how they attacque us. The meanes, under God, used in other Colonies is by Law to Establish a Militia, wch is also neces- sary to be by Law Established in this Province & Territories, nor will (I hope) those of the Assembly who profess themselves under a Religious Tye not to bear arms, be a Barr to others not only have a freedom but think it their duty to put the Inhabitants in a posture, under God, to Protect themselves from an unlawful force. The Golden Rule in this Case ought to be the Standard, ffor if those who profess themselves under a scruple to bear arms would think it a hardship to be fforced to it, so (I hope) they'll also think it one to Invade the principles of others by Disabling them to Effect what they in Con- science ought to do, wch is to Provide, under God, for ye Defence of ye Inhabitants against the insults of an Enemy.
POST MERIDIEM, Idem qui antea. -
Griffith Jones & Richd. Halliwell, by ordr of the rest of the Reps attended this board, desiring to know of ye Govr whether the Ship
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Messenger that was mencon'd Yesterday, & is now arrived, had brought any advices concerning the Govrmt that were Comunicable to ye sd Repsents, if so, that according to the Govrs proposal Yes- terday they might be imparted to them.
To Which the Govr answrd She had brought none to him, nor had he recevd one Line from England, all the Letters from ye Propr being sent, as he was Informed by the Ship Experiment that had Sailed ten dayes before her & thereupon they withdrew.
A message from ye Reps desiring to know when they might wait upon ye Govr, to which answer was made, forthwith if they pleased.
The Body of Repsentvs attended the Govr, and Jos. Growdon, in behalf of them all, said they humbly craved Leave to inform the Govrnr that they could find no method to form themselves into an Assembly, the same stops & objections still lying in the way, which they could by no meanes Sett over.
To which the Govr replied That by this answer he was to under- stand they did not Judge the heads he had laid before them to be of any great importance, Seeing Yesterday four of their Chief members in ye name of the rest had in a message declared, That in Case they could see the affairs the Govr had to lay before them were of so much weight or Exigency they would strain a point and find out some me- thod to act together so far as to answer them.
They Returned that ye heads proposed were Judged by them all to be of very great importance, yet notwithstanding they could find no meanes of agreemt, So as to form an Assembly on ye Sevrall Bottoms they were elected.
Some of the Prov declared that all those of ye upper Counties were willing to joyn with those of ye Lower, and so proceed to business.
9ber 18th. Jasp. Yeats, in behalf of the Lower Counties, declared that they were all extreamly willing to Enter upon the Consideration of the heads proposed to them, and answer the Queen & Govrs desires, in case they could be all Legally Elected by Writts, But as things now stand they could not, for should they act in conjunction with those of ye Prov it would necessarily Imply their owning the Charter, wch they by no means could. The Writt (he said) by wch they were chosen being grounded on the said Charter, Besides; That affairs relating to them being upon the anvil at home, (In England,) they thought it would be better if they were deferred till it were seen how they should be settled there.
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