USA > Pennsylvania > Colonial records of Pennsylvania, Vol. X > Part 19
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"To the Honorable JOHN PENN, Esquire.
" PHILADELPHIA, June 7th, 1774." 5
1
(No. 1.)
Letter from James Tilghman and Andrew Allen, Esquires, to Lord Dunmore.
" My Lord :
" In compliance with your Lordship's Request, We are now to state in Writing our Proposal, of a Line or Lines to ascertain for the present the Jurisdiction of the Colonies of Virginia and Penn- sylvania. And we would beg leave first to observe that, by the Terms of the Royal Grant, the Province of Pennsylvania is to ex- tend five Degrees of Longitude from its Eastern Boundaries, which are the River Delaware, and the twelve Mile Circle of New Castle; And we do presume that all the Settlements to the Westward, under Grants from Pennsylvania, are within that Extent. But in order to ascertain that Matter, and to prevent for the future such disa- greeable Differences and Disquiets as have of late unhappily sub- sisted between those Colonies by the clashing of their Jurisdictions, We would propose that as accurate a Survey as may serve the pre- sent Purpose, be with all convenient Speed taken by Surveyors to be appointed by the Governments of Virginia and Pennsylvania, of the Courses of the River Delaware, from the Mouth of Chris- tiana Creek, or near it, where the Line run between Maryland and Pennsylvania, by Mess". Mason and Dixon, intersects the said River, to that part of the said River which lies in the Latitude of Fort Pitt, and as much further as may be needful for the present pur- pose. That then the Line of Dixon and Mason be continued to the
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end of five Degrees of Longitude from the River Delaware, and from the end of the same five Degrees a Line or Lines correspond- ing to the Courses of the Delaware be run to the River Ohio, as nearly as may be at the Distance of five Degrees from the said River Delaware in every Part. And that the said Line of Dixon and Ma- son, continued from the Western extent of Maryland to the end of five Degrees of Longitude from the Delaware, and the said Line or Lines, similar to the Courses of the Delaware, be taken, deemed, and reputed, to be Lines of Jurisdiction between the Colonies of Virginia and Pennsylvania, until the Boundaries of Pennsylvania can be settled, and run and marked, by Royal Authority, for which Purpose your Lordship hath been pleased to consent to a joint Ap- plication with the Proprietaries of Pennsylvania to the Crown. That these Lines of Jurisdiction shall be established for the good Purpose only of quieting the Disturbances which at present subsist between the two Colonies, without any Prejudice to the Crown or the Proprietors of Pennsylvania, to the Southward of the said Line of Dixon and Mason, continued as far as the fortieth Degree of North Latitude, (all which Land the Proprietors of Pennsylvania claim,) until the Limits of Pennsylvania can be finally settled as aforesaid. And we would further propose to your Lordship, that until the said Lines of Jurisdiction can be run, the Jurisdiction of Virginia be suspended at Fort Pitt, and the Country thereabouts, as the Jurisdiction of Pennsylvania was unquestionably first ex- tended and executed in that part of the Country, as we think we can clearly satisfy your Lordship.
" If these Proposals, or the Maps we send with them, Should not be sufficiently clear and explicit, we shall be ready at any Time to attend your Lordship, in Order to explain them.
" We have the Honor to be,
"your Lordship's most obedient and most humble Servants,
"JAMES TILGHMAN, "ANDREW ALLEN.
" Williamsburg, May 23d, 1774."
" To His Excellency the Right Honorable the Earl of Dunmore, Governor and Commander-in-Chlef of the Colony and Dominion of Virginia.
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(No. 2.)
Letter from Lord Dunmore to James Tilghman, and Andrews Allen, Esquires.
" WILLIAMSBURG, 24th May, 1774.
" Gentlemen :
" Having considered your Proposals of a Boundary Line or Lines to ascertain for the present the Jurisdiction of the Colonies of Vir-
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ginia and Pennsylvania, and the Terms of the Royal Grant, I am of Opinion that the latter cannot admit of the Construction which you give to them, or that it could possibly be the Intent of the Crown that the Western Bounds of your Province should have the very inconvenient, and so difficult to be ascertained, Shape as it would have if, as you say, it were to correspond with the course of the River Delaware; but I think from the words of the Grant, rather than your Western Boundary should be determined by a Meridian Line at five degrees of Longitude from the River Dela- ware, to be computed from that Point upon it which is at the ex- tent of the 42d degree of Latitude, and the Line drawn from that Point to the aforesaid Meridian, is your North Bounds ; and your South Bounds should be a Strait Line Westward from the Circle drawn at twelve Miles distance from New-Castle Northward, and Westward unto the beginning of the fortieth degree of Latitude, until that Strait Line Westward intersect the Meridian above men- tioned, which is the Limits of Longitude mentioned in the Royal Grant, and no other, as it appears to me. Conformable to this, I am willing to agree to a temporary Line, that may serve to ascertain the Jurisdiction of both Colonies, and quiet the Disturbances which subsist, and prevent them in future ; but if you are already deter- mined not to depart from the Proposals now given in to me, I must inform you that it will be in vain to treat any further upon the Sub- ject, as it would be utterly impossible for me, in compliance with my Duty, to suspend the Jurisdiction of Virginia at Fort Pitt and Country thereabouts, which you make yourselves, following your own Construction of the Royal Grant, to be only five or six Miles within your Limits; and if that should not, but the other which I have given, be the true Construction, then Fort Pitt, by the River Delaware, running very much Easterdly towards your Northern Bounds, will probably be at least fifty Miles without your Limits, which would be a Concession, I really think, too great for me to make, whether it be or not for you to ask.
"I must also inform you that I am clearly of Opinion that, were it possible I could admit your own Construction of the Royal Grant, and your own Surveys and Observations, your ascertaining your Claim under the Former has been done too late, and your ascer- taining your Boundary by the latter has consequently been to no Purpose ; for, if the Lands described by the Royal Grant, at the Time of the Grant being passed, were clearly within the undoubted Limits of His Majesty's Dominions, which is also a Question, yet still Fort Pitt and Country thereabouts, for want of the Proprietors of Pennsylvania supporting their Claim and ascertaining their Boundary in due Time, was suffered to be claimed and possessed by an Enemy, from whom it was conquered by His Majesty's Arms, and by whom it was confirmed to His Majesty in a Treaty. Conse- quently therefore, no legal Title, as it appears to me, can be set up to any of that Territory, but under a Grant ofthe Crown, Subsequent to such Possession, Conquest, &cª.
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" As to your Idea of the Jurisdiction of Pennsylvania having been first extended and exercised in that part of the Country, it was, indeed, the Jurisdiction of Pennsylvania having been ex- tended and exercised, not only there where you have extended your Claims, but even to a hundred Miles beyond any that you have yet pretended to, that has given occasion to the Inhabitants over whom your Jurisdiction was exercised, and who think themselves, accord- ing to the general Sense of Virginia, subject to the Jurisdiction only of the latter, to apply to this Government for protection and redress, which this Government, in duty, could not refuse them, as far as its legal Powers extends. But I am so far from thinking, as you suggest, that the Jurisdiction of Pennsylvania having been first extended and exercised in that Country, is a Reason that should in- duce the Government of Virginia to suspend its Jurisdiction there ; that, in my Opinion, the latter is entitled to some Apology from the former, for attempting a Measure without the participation that ought to have the Sanction of both, as his Majesty had not given his to it.
"I mention not these Circumstances for the Purpose of en- gaging in a dispute with the Proprietors of Pennsylvania, or of throwing Obstacles in the way of an Accomodation, which I am sensible it is the Interest of both Colonies, and the Duty of the Governors of them, to facilitate; but with the Design of making it appear that I have not, upon very slight Grounds, rejected Propo- sals for settling the Disputes and Differences subsisting between the two Colonies, and which require no less than that every Thing which is contended for (depending on such a variety of Contin- gencies) on the Part of Pennsylvania, should be given up on the Part of Virginia immediately.
" I cannot but think that you entertain an erroneous Opinion of the Boundaries of your Province, as described in the Royal Grants, but even if not, that your Proposals are unreasonable, and that the sincerity of your desire to settle all Disputes between Pennsylvania and Virginia would appear less doubtful if you had observed, in your Proposals, an equitable regard to the pretensions of this Gov- ernment, especially as nothing thereby can prejudice the legal Title of your Government; therefore, unless you are authorized to agree to a Plan that favours as much the Sentiments of this as of your own Government, I see no accomodation that can be entered into previous to His Majesty's Decision, which I shall not fail to join my Application for the obtaining as soon as possible.
" I am, Gentlemen, " Your most Obedient humble Servant,
" JAMES TILGHMAN and ANDREW ALLEN, Esquires."
" DUNMORE.
e
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(No. 3).
Letter from James Tilghman and Andrew Allen, Esquires, to Lord Dunmore.
" My Lord :
" We are honored with your Lordship's Answer of Yesterday, to our Proposals of a Boundary Line or Lines, to ascertain, for the present, the Jurisdiction between the Colonies of Virginia and Pennsylvania, to which your Lordship will be pleased to indulge us in a Reply, which we are induced to make from a Persuasion that, if we can be so happy as to support the Principles upon which we- founded our Proposals, or to point out just Objections to your Lordship's reasoning, We may still come to such an Understand- ing as may answer the good Purposes for which we waited on your Lordship.
" We thought the Western Boundary of Pennsylvania, when clearly understood, ought to be one of the Lines of Jurisdiction. Your Lordship is in the same Sentiment, by offering to make what you conceive to be our Western Bounds the Line of Jurisdiction ; but you are pleased to differ with us in the construction of the Grant If we have a just Apprehension of your Lordship's meaning, you suppose that a Meridian Line, drawn from the end of five De- grees of Longitude from Delaware, at the Beginning of the forty-third Degree of Latitude, ought to determine the Wes- tern Boundary of Pennsylvania ; We are at a Loss to conceive from what Expression of the Charter your Lordship can collect that the Western Boundary of Pennsylvania should be a Meridian Line, or why that Meridian should be drawn rather from the North than the South Boundary of the Province. The Charter expresses that the Province shall extend five Degrees of Longitude from its Eastern Boundary ; The Eastern Boundary is the Delaware in general, but if the Western Bounds are to be determined by a Me- ridian Line, the Province will extend in some parts more, and in others less than five degrees of Longitude, from its Eastern Boundary ; This we conceive to be against the Terms of the Grant, which we are of Opinion cannot be satisfied by any other than a Line or Lines corresponding with the Courses of the Delaware, and this is the only construction we have ever heard made of that Part of the Charter.
" Your Lordship, after expressing a Doubt whether that Part of the Country now in dispute was within the King of England's Do- minions at the Time of making the Pennsylvania Grant, is pleased to contend 'that tho' it were possible for you to admit our Con- struction of the Royal Grant, and the Country we contend for should be within the Limits of Pennsylvania, according to such Construction, yet Fort Pitt and the Country thereabouts, for want of the Proprietors of Pennsylvania supporting their Claim and as-
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certaining their Boundaries in due Time, was suffered to be claimed and possessed by an Enemy, from whom it was conquered by His Majesty's Arms, and by whom it was confirmed to IIis Majesty in a Treaty, and consequently, that no Legal Title can be set up to any of that Territory, but under a Grant of the Crown subsequent to such Possession, Conquest, &cª.'
" Not to enter into a discussion of the Facts of claim, and Pos- session by an Enemy, and Conquest by His Majesty's Arms, and the Enemy's Confirmation, or the effect of them upon the Rights of His Majesty's Subjects, which we think needless, we shall only observe that your Lordship's Argument militates equally against Virginia as against Pennsylvania, since there hath been no new Grant that we know of subsequent to such Possession, Conquest, &cª., and that, therefore, in our opinion, your Lordship ought not, upon your own principles, to have extended the Jurisdiction of Virginia to Fort Pitt and the Country thereabouts. Your Lord- ship seems to allow that there was a prior exercise of Jurisdiction on the side of Pennsylvania, and you urge that as a Reason for your Interposition, and are pleased to think that Virginia is enti- tled to an Apology from the Government of Pennsylvania for thus exercising a Jurisdiction without the Sanction of the Crown's participation. Were it undeniably true that the Government of Pennsylvania had knowingly extended their Jurisdiction beyond the Limits of the Charter, we should be far from vindicating such a Conduct ; and we are certain that if any of our Officers have acted officially beyond the known Limits of the Province, they will be censured rather than supported by the Government; But assured, as we are, that Fort Pitt must be within our Charter Lim- its, we cannot be induced to think that our Government were im- proper in exercising their Jurisdiction there, and we are inclined to be of Opinion that if your Lordship, when an Application was first made to you to take that place under the Government of Vir- ginia, had thought fit to have given the least Intimation of your Design to the Governor of Pennsylvania, much of the disagreeable consequence which has followed would probably have been pre- vented.
" We are really concerned to find that our Conceptions of the Ex- tent of Pennsylvania are so very different, but we are not without hope that your Lordship will, upon re-considering the Subject, be of Opinion that your Construction is liable to the Objections we have made. And although we are satisfied that we shall be sup- ported in ours, yet we are not so tenacious of our first Proposals as to adhere strictly to them, while we have any Hopes that a reason- able Departure from them will produce so desirable an Effect as the Settlement of Harmony and Peace between the two Colonies. And for that valuable Purpose, we shall be willing to recede so far from our Charter Bounds as to make the River Monongahela, from the Line of Dizon and Mason downward, the Western Boundary of Ju-
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risdiction, which would at once settle our present Disputes, without the great Trouble and Expence of running Lines, or the Inconve- nience of keeping the Jurisdiction in Suspence. This, We assure your Lordship, is the farthest we can go in Point of Concession, - and if your Lordship is determined to adhere to your Proposal of a Meridian Line, or indeed, to insist upon retaining the Jurisdiction of Fort Pitt, or the Lands to the Eastward of the Monongahela, we can treat no farther. But we cannot quit the Subject without expressing our Concern that your Lordship should entertain a Doubt of the sincerity of our Desire to settle all Disputes between Vir- ginia and Pennsylvania, as we are not conscious of having done any Thing that could give your Lordship so unfavorable an Impression. And we beg leave to assure your Lordship that nothing less than a most sincere Wish and Desire to restore Peace and Harmony, and to settle our Disputes, with a due Regard to the just Pretensions of both Colonies, could have actuated our Government to send us hither, or could have induced us to undertake a Journey of such length and so very inconvenient to us. We think the Proposals we have made contain the most reasonable Concessions, and it will give us real Concern should your Lordship's Ideas be so different from ours that the desired Accommodation cannot be effected. We thank your Lordship for your ready Consent to join our Proprietors in an Ap- plication to the Crown to settle our Bounds, and have the Honor to be, with Great Regard,
" Your Lordship's most Obedient, " And most humble Servants, "JAMES TILGHMAN, "ANDREW ALLEN.
" His Excellency LORD DUNMORE.
" Williamsburg, May 25th, 1774."
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(No. 4.)
Letter from Lord Dunmore to James Tilghman and Andrew Allen, Esquires.
" WILLIAMSBURG, 26th May, 1774.
"Gentlemen :
" I perceive you have fallen into the Error, that from my having alledged the Reasons which induced me to think your first Proposal improper for me to comply with, I would enter into a discussion at length, of all the Points of the Claim of the Proprietors of Penn- sylvania, which I must assure you was in nowise my Design, nor can I by any Means consent to.
"I must, nevertheless, repeat here that I think, from the Words of your Grant, that a Meridian Line (which is sufficiently described
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in my Answer to your first Proposal,) the Line that should deter- mine your Western Boundary, and the Reason very plain, that this Meridian should be drawn rather from the North than the South, because the Grant directs that the Survey shall begin at a Point on the South part of the Boundary, and proceed Northward as far as three and forty Degrees of Latitude, and it being usual in like Cases, always to proceed, consequently from thence extend five De- grees of Longitude, and not return to the South Point to draw it from thence, which cannot any way be inferred, no more than it can be supposed that it was inconsiderately intended the Grant should extend five Degrees of Longitude from every Part of the River Dela- ware, which would make a Line so difficult, if not impossible, to trace upon the Land.
"That you should think the Circumstances, which I cannot but be of Opinion must render the Parchment Boundary of Pennsyl- vania, whatever it were, insufficient now to determine the Limits of the Province, needless to be considered, is a Point which must be perfectly indifferent to Me, for the Reason I have given in the first part of this Letter; but your Idea is a mistaken one, that leads you to conclude that the same Circumstances militate equally against Virginia as against Pennsylvania, there being no less im- portant a Difference than that the one acts for the King, the other against him. The Jurisdiction of Virginia cannot he exercised over any Country but for the immediate Benefit, as well as Interest of His Majesty, to whom that Jurisdiction secures the Quit Rents, and every Advantage which His Majesty had proposed to draw from the granting of his unappropriated Lands, but which I presume, is not meant to be urged in vindication of the Encroachments of Penn- sylvania. But in the present Instance, however, Virginia has in- terfered only, as you knew before, in compliance with the Request and formal Petition of a numerous Body of Inhabitants, who, think- ing themselves, from the general Opinion, settled within the limits of this Government, apply to the Authority thereof to be protected against the usurped Jurisdiction of Pennsylvania, which Virginia did not think itself at Liberty to refuse, but which it granted, nevertheless, without the least Design of refusing Obedience to whatever Decision His Majesty may be pleased to make thereupon ; the Tenour of which Attempt, Proceeding, and Determination, make another assential Consideration, and which renders, I am inclined to believe, the Case of Virginia in this Dispute impossible to be assimilated, as you would endeavour, to that of Pennsylvania. Your Interpretation of my first Letter, to infer I have allowed there was a prior exercise of Jurisdiction on the Side of Pennsylvania, obliges me to recall to your View the Transactions in Governor Din- widdie's Time, and to inform you, if you are ignorant of it, of a re- quisition from General Gage to this Colony as that to which, by the Public Opinion, the Territory belonged, to appoint a Magistrate at Fort Pitt, where there then was none, and which Magistrate was
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accordingly appointed, which, while it proves the prior exercise of Jurisdiction to have been, not on the side of Pennsylvania but on that of Virginia, as these were Acts of Public Notoriety, and under- taken under the Authority of public exigence. They prove also more the Impropriety of Pennsylvania's having exercised their Jurisdic- tion at all in that District without other Authority than their own Opinion and Motive, than their private Advantage, and the Title still stronger of this Government to an Apology for it.
"You proceed to intimate that you are certain if any of your Officers have acted Officially beyond the known Limits of the Pro- vince, they will be censured rather than supported, I really think I shall be justified in questioning this Assertion, for although much Pains, as is pretended, have been taken to ascertain your Boundary, It would seem very strange, I think impossible, that even this very Boundary is immediately unknowingly exceeded, I am war- ranted to say, by near a hundred miles, and yet I have not heard of the Dispensation even of that Gentle Punishment you mention, though we know of one of your Officers being supported and justi- fied in Terms not very decent, in a violent Act that has been the Cause of whatever Disturbances or Disputes subsist between the two Colonies. Nor can I think that, if I had upon Application first made to me to take the Country in dispute under the Gov- ernment of Virginia, intimated my Design to the Governor of Pennsylvania, (which I rather believe you mention by way of re- crimination,) it would have had the Effect you say, for there is surely as great a necessity for preventing all disagreeable Conse- quences now as there was then, and the pretensions of both Parties were, I suppose, the same then as now; and what are your Propo- sals to reconcile them ? Why in your first propose, that every Thing in dispute shall be given up to Pennsylvania, and in your second, that Virginia shall be content without having any Thing given up to it ; at least I can find nothing given up by your proposal of the Monongahela, &cª .; what else therefore, can I conclude from both the Proposals, but that no real Intention is meant to avoid the great and reciprocal Inconveniences of a doubtful Boundary, which otherwise would, I conceive, as it was not intended to be final, have been in a Manner that could justify this Government in general with the People for any Departure from the conceived Opinion of the Limits of the Colony, and myself in particular, with His Ma- jesty, for entering into any agreement that may eventually affect his right.
" I join with you in Concern that we should differ so widely in Conception of the Extent of Pennsylvania, as it affects Virginia, but must confess that your Objections have not altered my Opin- ion of the Construction of your Grant, notwithstanding you are so confedent of being supported in yours. However, I am less anxious about the issue of these different opinions than I am about the Effects of them in the meantime. Your Proposals amounting in
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reality to nothing, could not possibly be complied with, and your Resolution with respect to Fort Pitt, (the Jurisdiction over which Place I must tell you at all Events, will not be relinquished by this Government without his Majesty's Order,) puts an entire Stop to further Treaty, and makes me sincerely lament that you have put it out of my Power to contribute to re-establish the Peace and Harmony of both Colonies, and to evince my good Intentions as well towards the one as the other.
"I am, Gentlemen, " Your most Obedient, " humble Servant, "DUNMORE.
" JAMES TILGHMAN and ANDREW ALLEN, Esquires."
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(No. 5).
Letter from James Tilghman and Andrew Allen, Esquires, to Lord Dunmore.
" My Lord :
"Since your Lordship is determined, as you are pleased to say, at all Events not to relinquish your Jurisdiction over Fort Pitt, a Period is put to our Treaty, and we can only, with your Lordship's, lament the continuance of those reciprocal Inconveniences of clash- ing and disputed Jurisdictions, which we are conscious of having done every thing which could be reasonably expected of us to pre- vent, and We have only to add our Thanks for the polite Atten- tion your Lordship has been pleased to shew us, and the Dispatch you have given to our Business. We intend to leave Town to- Morrow, but before our Departure, we shall do ourselves the Honor to wait on your Lordship for your Commands to the Northward, where we shall be ready to render your Lordship any Service in our Power.
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